The development of the industry requires greater capacity, and the development plan for L2 is the only path that can meet future demands.

整理 & 编译：深潮TechFlow

Guest: Steven Goldfeder, Founder and CEO of Offchain Labs

Host: Laura Shin

Podcast Source: Unchained

Original Title: Why the Arbitrum Stack Won in the Race to Support Robinhood Chain

Broadcast Date: July 4, 2025

Key Points Summary

Steven Goldfeder, CEO of Offchain Labs, explains why Robinhood chose Arbitrum to rebuild the crypto infrastructure of its core products, the potential brought by on-chain stock tokenization, and why we may be re-entering the "zero to one" stage of the crypto space.

Co-founder of Offchain Labs, Steven Goldfeder, shared on the Unchained program why Robinhood chose to rebuild its products based on the Arbitrum tech stack, which signifies the evolution of crypto technology and how this initiative ultimately connects Web2 and Web3.

Highlights

• For Robinhood, there are several compelling reasons to launch its own blockchain, one key point being MEV capture. This includes both MEV capture and fee capture—unique advantages brought by launching its own blockchain.

• Whether on Arbitrum One or on Robinhood's own chain, the tokenization of stocks is what we truly look forward to as the "ultimate prize." This is not just about "launching another asset on-chain," but about deeply integrating blockchain technology with existing Web2 infrastructure.

• Tokenizing stocks and introducing them to the blockchain market is indeed a brand new innovation. We need to deeply understand how to connect the dynamic relationship between the traditional financial system and blockchain. This is indeed a challenge, but we should not shy away from it.

• Crypto technology will be at the core of the next financial revolution. We cannot remain stuck in past models; blockchain and cryptocurrencies will become the future financial infrastructure, and ultimately everyone will adapt and move in this direction.

• The technical issues of liquidity fragmentation account for only 10%; the real core is the 90% user experience (UX) and wallet support issues. Even with the most complex protocols, if wallets do not simplify user operations and provide a unified environment, these technological innovations will not truly take effect.

• Blockchain will integrate into our financial system and become a part of it. I believe that over time, this will become increasingly evident, and blockchain will play a crucial role.

• When blockchain technology gradually becomes mainstream and widely accepted, institutions will realize that building on blockchain not only provides better services for users but also reduces costs and enhances profitability. This is a win-win choice.

• It is very important to empower users with the choice of self-sovereignty, meaning users can transfer assets to their own wallets at any time or choose other custody methods.

• If you think the future of the crypto industry is merely what we saw a week ago, then you might feel there is no need to develop L2. But in reality, the development of the industry requires greater capacity. The development plan for L2 is the only path that can meet future demands.

• Through the L2 development roadmap, we can shift from a single L1 platform to a more decentralized and efficient L2 ecosystem. Although this process is not easy, once we solve the interoperability issues, we can achieve long-term sustainable development.

Why Robinhood Chose Arbitrum and How Much Control They Actually Have

Laura:

Welcome to Unchained on July 4, 2025. Today's guest is Steven Goldfeder, co-founder and CEO of Offchain Labs. Steven, it's great to have you on the show.

The big news recently is that Robinhood announced the launch of perpetual contracts, tokenized stocks, and their own blockchain. This indicates that not only is the crypto industry pushing users on-chain, but other sectors are also beginning to recognize the potential of blockchain technology and are gradually adopting it. Robinhood initially chose to launch on Arbitrum 1 while building its own chain using the Arbitrum tech stack, which is a significant milestone for Arbitrum. There are rumors that Robinhood may have initially considered Solana but ultimately chose Arbitrum. So, Steven, can you share the main reasons behind Robinhood's decision?

Steven:

Robinhood's choice is primarily based on two key factors. The first is the maturity and security of the Arbitrum tech stack. Our technology has been running stably in production for years and can support the demands of enterprises like Robinhood.

The second is flexibility. Robinhood initially launched tokenized stocks and ETFs on Arbitrum 1 while announcing plans to migrate to its own Arbitrum chain, the Robinhood chain, in the future. Arbitrum is the only ecosystem that has both a trusted neutral blockchain (like Arbitrum 1) and offers a top-tier blockchain tech stack. This combination allows Robinhood to launch quickly while easily scaling to its own chain as demand grows, without making significant adjustments to the existing architecture.

Laura:

One of the attractions of the Arbitrum tech stack is that it allows businesses to highly customize according to their needs. Can you elaborate on the customization options provided by Arbitrum Orbit?

Steven:

Certainly. Customization mainly falls into two categories: basic customization and advanced customization. Basic customization includes options we directly support, such as custom gas tokens. Arbitrum 1 uses Ethereum as the default gas token, but users can choose to use stablecoins or their own tokens as gas tokens. Additionally, the data availability layer can also choose different solutions, such as Celestia.

Similarly, in terms of the data availability layer, Arbitrum 1 uses Ethereum, which is the most secure data availability layer. But we also support Celestia and many other data availability layers that are being launched.

These are basically two examples of out-of-the-box customization. There are also deeper customizations, such as block time; Arbitrum 1 has a block time of 250 milliseconds, but some chains (like Ray) run at 100 milliseconds, and the technology is stable enough to support this. These are just parameters you can set.

Then there is what I call "deeper customization," where you actually need to go into the backend and change some things yourself. These methods may not be supported, but you can freely experiment.

For example, chains like Phoenix are building privacy directly into the Arbitrum tech stack. They are using fully homomorphic encryption in this case to enhance privacy. Chains like Plume and Kaito are adding institutional KYC controls at the chain level itself. So, you have an environment where everyone is compliance-checked upon entry. These are just a few examples.

Additionally, some communities enforce copyright fees, and if you want to transfer specific assets on-chain, there will be mandatory requirements. Many different customizations, but all using the core of Arbitrum technology.

How Arbitrum Stylus Provides a Better User Experience for Robinhood and Other Platforms

Laura:

Among the technical advantages of Arbitrum, there is a noteworthy product—Arbitrum Stylus. Can you introduce its features and the problems it solves for businesses using Arbitrum technology?

Steven:

Arbitrum Stylus is an innovative product we launched last September, and it is very unique in the blockchain space; currently, there are no similar solutions in other ecosystems. The main feature of Stylus is that it allows developers to use traditional programming languages like Rust and C++ on Arbitrum 1, rather than being limited to Solidity. This is very practical for developers, especially in scenarios requiring high-performance computing, such as validating new signature schemes or zero-knowledge proofs. Rust and C++ are generally more efficient than Solidity, allowing developers to directly bring code from these languages onto the chain for writing smart contracts.

Moreover, for complex computational tasks like AI inference, the performance advantages of Stylus are significant. According to our benchmarks, computations using Stylus can typically achieve over 10 times the performance improvement while significantly reducing costs.

Another notable advantage of Stylus is its flexibility. Traditional blockchain development usually requires developers to choose between EVM chains and Rust chains in advance, and this choice affects subsequent development work. On Arbitrum and any chain that supports Stylus, developers can use both EVM and other languages simultaneously and freely choose the most suitable tools. Additionally, contracts written in different languages can interact seamlessly, and developers do not even need to know what language a particular contract is written in. For example, an application can be primarily written in Solidity, but certain complex parts can be rewritten in Rust for efficiency.

Integrating these tools seamlessly to bring convenience to our developers is very important. When it comes to the fusion of Web 2 and Web 3, Web 2 developers often prefer these other languages. Therefore, we want to have a single environment that can attract EVM developers who like Solidity, while also appealing to Web 2 developers with years of experience in languages like Rust, C, or C++, who can now directly leverage these languages in their blockchain applications.

Laura:

I can imagine companies like Robinhood, which have a lot of legacy code, could significantly simplify system integration if they could easily integrate into the blockchain technology stack. This is also one of the attractions of Stylus, right?

Steven:

While I can't fully represent Robinhood in describing their specific technical implementations, it is certain that they are very interested in Stylus and see it as an important breakthrough. Not only that, but Stylus also provides a powerful tool for other developers, attracting them to build applications on the Robinhood chain. If Robinhood positions this chain as a leading platform for real-world asset tokenization (RWAs), many traditional brokerage firms may consider migrating to this chain, and these firms typically have years of accumulated legacy code. The compatibility and flexibility of Stylus make this migration easier, while also bringing more possibilities to the entire ecosystem.

Why Liquidity Fragmentation Remains a Major Unresolved Issue

Laura:

Do you think Arbitrum Stylus can help address the long-standing issue of liquidity fragmentation? In decentralized finance (DeFi), liquidity fragmentation has been an unresolved challenge. If users need to interact with other chains, such as through bridging systems for interoperability, will Stylus help with that?

Steven:

Liquidity fragmentation is indeed an important issue, but I think it's a slightly different area. We must focus on solving this problem, and Option Labs is working in this direction, aiming to optimize the user experience by connecting not only all Arbitrum chains but also all blockchains, especially EVM chains. This will enable users to more easily engage in cross-chain interactions, while developers can create shared experiences.

Stylus, as a toolkit, is helpful for anything you want to build on the blockchain, but I'm not sure it specifically benefits the resolution of liquidity fragmentation. The only advantage is that it allows you to verify zero-knowledge proofs (ZKP) on-chain. If bridging solutions need to use ZKP, which is often necessary, then there may be benefits in that regard.

Why MEV Capture is So Attractive to Robinhood

Laura:

I think another important factor that may be crucial for Robinhood is control over MEV.

Steven:

If we compare two options: one is operating on a public blockchain, and the other is launching their own blockchain. For Robinhood, there are several compelling reasons to choose to launch their own blockchain, one key point being MEV capture.

MEV refers to the additional profits generated from the ordering of blockchain transactions, typically captured by miners or validators. If Robinhood operates on a public blockchain, their MEV profits will flow to others. Owning their own blockchain allows them to have complete control over MEV capture. This is very important. For example, they can use our recently launched Time Boost technology on Arbitrum One to optimize MEV capture or adopt other solutions developed by Dashboard. These specific technical choices will depend on their strategic planning. While I don't have more details to share today, it is certain that unique control over MEV can only be achieved on their own chain.

Another important reason is fee capture. If Robinhood operates on a public blockchain, they need to pay fees for every user transaction, and these fees ultimately go to others. However, if they launch their own blockchain, these fees can not only stay within their system but also be converted into revenue sources. In other words, Robinhood can not only reduce operational costs but also increase revenue by attracting more user transactions. This dual benefit—both MEV capture and fee capture—is a unique advantage of launching their own blockchain.

Why On-Chain Stock Tokenization May Be the "Ultimate Prize" for Arbitrum

Laura:

In Robinhood's recent series of announcements, particularly the launch of the Robinhood chain, why do you think stock tokenization is so attractive to your team?

Steven:

I think this is closely related to the Robinhood chain. Regarding the relationship between Arbitrum and the Robinhood chain, our stance is relatively neutral, but the issuance of tokenized stocks across the entire Arbitrum ecosystem is what excites us the most. Whether on Arbitrum One or on Robinhood's own chain, I believe this is what we truly look forward to as the "ultimate prize." Let me share my personal experience and why I think this is so important.

Back in 2013, when I first encountered smart contracts, what truly excited me was not the emerging verticals like NFTs (though they are interesting too). What shocked me was the powerful potential of this technology to rebuild and transform existing systems. However, over the past decade, many people have lost sight of this vision, even forgetting it, leading to cryptocurrencies being gradually viewed as a separate system rather than a tool to transform existing frameworks.

Robinhood's approach gives me hope for a return to the original intent of cryptocurrency. They are not simply launching a new crypto product; they are choosing to fundamentally reshape their core business. As Robinhood's CEO Vlad said, they are "rebuilding" their core products. At the event, they showcased the user experience of the Robinhood app in the U.S. and Europe. The two experiences look completely identical, and users may not even notice the difference. In fact, trades in the U.S. are completed through traditional brokerage firms, while trades in Europe are conducted via the Arbitrum blockchain. This seamless transition in user experience is a significant breakthrough.

This is not just about "launching another asset on-chain," but about deeply integrating blockchain technology with existing Web 2 infrastructure. Every user of the Robinhood app, whether they realize it or not, will have access to blockchain technology and cryptocurrencies. I believe the potential of this approach is very powerful.

What It Means to Be Part of the Arbitrum Ecosystem

Laura:

I think Robinhood's decision may be influenced by an important factor: the total value locked (TVL) performance of Arbitrum is very impressive. Its TVL is slightly higher than Base, with both at similar levels. This makes me curious about what specific advantages Robinhood can gain from the existing Arbitrum ecosystem after launching their own chain on Arbitrum One.

Steven:

The liquidity you mentioned is key. Robinhood is a very powerful market participant, and I believe they will not encounter too many issues in driving liquidity on their chain. However, for products like Robinhood, a deep liquidity network is indispensable. And Arbitrum One happens to provide them with that environment.

Looking ahead, even if these assets are ultimately issued on the Robinhood chain, I believe they will still have a profound impact on the entire Arbitrum ecosystem. The reason is that the Arbitrum ecosystem is already very mature and strong in the DeFi space. In addition to crypto-native assets, traditional financial assets like stocks and ETFs can now be introduced. These assets can integrate into existing protocols and operate as part of them. Especially through on-chain stock tokenization, users can utilize these assets for collateral, lending, and other operations, which will fundamentally change the functionality and potential of the entire ecosystem.

This transformation will not only benefit the Arbitrum ecosystem but also impact the broader Ethereum ecosystem. The ability to issue these assets on-chain will significantly enhance the application scope of blockchain technology. I believe this innovation will continue to drive the development of Arbitrum One in both the short and long term.

How Stock Tokenization Could Change Investment Models and Its Potential Risks

Laura:

Perhaps you've seen Rob Hadick's tweet, or maybe you haven't, as you might be busy with many other things. He mentioned that combining stocks with the DeFi world could have some far-reaching effects, especially when these tokenized assets are used in different ways within DeFi. He also pointed out that this could raise some issues, such as the prices of tokenized stocks potentially deviating from the prices of their actual underlying assets.

After all, traditional stock markets do not operate 24/7 like crypto markets. What are your thoughts on this? What should people be aware of in this process?

Steven:

Actually, I haven't seen his specific points, so I will respond from a more general perspective. If my answer doesn't fully correspond to his argument, it's because I haven't seen his tweet.

First, as you mentioned, the current trading hours for traditional markets are 5 days a week, 24 hours, rather than a year-round 24/7 trading model. Nevertheless, traditional markets do have after-hours trading mechanisms, but there is still significant room for improvement in overall efficiency. Deep liquidity and arbitrage opportunities are key factors in maintaining price consistency across different markets.

Of course, tokenizing stocks and introducing them to the blockchain market is indeed a brand new innovation. We need to deeply understand how to connect the dynamic relationship between the traditional financial system and blockchain. This is indeed a challenge, but we should not shy away from it.

In fact, the year-round 24/7 trading model brings many benefits. For example, redemptions for traditional money market funds usually require a 5-day wait, while stablecoins on-chain can achieve instant redemption. This is very important for large fund holders, as they can avoid losing interest income due to waiting.

Overall, stock tokenization will provide investors and ordinary users with a more convenient and efficient way to invest. Of course, the issue of price deviation may exist in the short term, but this is because we are in a technological breakthrough phase from nothing to something. As technology develops and the market matures, these issues will gradually be resolved.

Looking ahead, more and more assets will be issued directly on the blockchain. As Robinhood's CEO Vlad mentioned last week on CNBC, crypto technology will be at the core of the next financial revolution. From the initial paper-and-pencil records to computerization, and now to encryption, each transition comes with certain friction. But we cannot remain stuck in past models. Blockchain and cryptocurrencies will become the financial infrastructure of the future, and I believe that ultimately everyone will adapt and move in this direction.

Why Arbitrum DAO Will Benefit from This Collaboration

Laura:

I have a question because usually such collaborative deals involve financial aspects. Can you talk about whether there are any financial incentives in the collaboration with Robinhood? Or can you share some relevant information?

Steven:

Due to policy restrictions, I cannot disclose the specific details of the collaboration. However, I can say that this partnership is very beneficial for both parties. It not only helps Robinhood expand its product range but also brings significant value to Arbitrum DAO. The DAO can enhance community building through these integrations while also gaining economic benefits from each launched project.

Liquidity Fragmentation is Easier to Solve Than Most People Think

Laura:

I want to return to the liquidity fragmentation issue we discussed earlier. As these areas converge, this problem may become more pronounced. Do you have any particular solutions that excite you? Or what aspects do you think need more attention? Overall, how do you think this issue will be resolved?

Steven:

This is something I have been thinking about, and perhaps my view is somewhat controversial. Many people believe that liquidity fragmentation is a technical problem that can be solved by designing complex protocols by technical teams. But I think the technical issue only accounts for 10%, while the real core is 90% user experience (UX) and wallet support issues. Even with the most complex protocols, if wallets do not simplify user operations and provide a unified environment, these technological innovations will not truly take effect.

Of course, we can also optimize protocol design further. There are already some good protocols that can alleviate liquidity fragmentation issues, although they are not perfect yet, they can still drive the process forward. However, what really needs to be addressed is the enhancement of user experience. For example, the current experience of using blockchain is like the internet without a browser. Users need to input complex addresses to interact and complete various cumbersome operations, which is very unfriendly for ordinary users.

We are working to build tools similar to a "browser" to simplify the complexity of user interactions with the blockchain. For example, imagine if a window popped up on YouTube asking whether you wanted to watch through AWS or ECP today; this would make no sense to users. Users only care about the application experience, not the underlying technical details. Therefore, I believe redesigning the front-end experience is key to solving the problem, and it is an achievable goal, but no one has really done it yet.

We are launching some preliminary solutions to drive this process, and we will release more related information in the coming weeks. By integrating existing resources and technologies, I believe we can address most of the challenges in liquidity fragmentation.

Where the Integration of Crypto and Traditional Finance Will Head Next

Laura:

I think you might be involved in some very interesting conversations right now, even though you may not be able to disclose too many details. However, can you talk about the trends you are observing, or based on these conversations, which direction do you think the industry will develop in the short term? We have noticed that many companies have recently started to compete in the same field, each approaching it from different angles and possibly having different advantages. Meanwhile, a long-held view among many is becoming a reality: the emergence of the "financial internet." I remember someone mentioning on Bankless some of the points you often make. It seems we are witnessing this process in a slow manner, which may take ten years or even longer.

Based on your current observations, what do you think will happen in the short term? What are some interesting ways the two worlds are combining that ordinary people may not yet be aware of?

Steven:

First of all, I do often say this, and I think there is some misunderstanding in the use of terminology. For example, no one says, "I work in centralized finance"; finance is finance. And blockchain is not a marginalized technology that only a few can access. It is actually a tool that can reconstruct the entire financial system, and ultimately it will integrate into our financial system and become part of it. I believe that over time, this will become increasingly evident, and blockchain will play a crucial role.

Entering this field is always difficult; everyone is waiting for a pioneer to break the first barrier before others can follow suit. Therefore, we now see many smart people and large institutions saying, "I thought this was impossible, but since they can do it, we can try too." This is both an incentive and an observation of the actions of pioneers. Meanwhile, these institutions are also studying existing token standards, thinking about how to collaborate or reuse these technologies and establish open standards based on them. These are all important conversations happening in the industry right now. I believe that almost no large financial institution is without a team researching how to integrate blockchain technology. Five years ago, the situation was completely different; back then, you had to convince them that it was worth discussing, and now it is the opposite.

With changes in the regulatory environment and significant moves taken by forward-looking companies like Robinhood, these provide references for decision-making by other institutions. As the saying goes, "No one gets fired for choosing IBM." **As blockchain technology gradually becomes mainstream and widely accepted, institutions will realize that building on blockchain not only provides better services for users but also *reduces costs* and enhances profitability. This is a win-win choice.** Moreover, as pioneers take action, others will feel more confident to join in.

Additionally, some companies, such as BlackRock, Franklin Templeton, and WisdomTree, have already developed products on Arbitrum. As for what this means for ordinary users, returning to the point I mentioned earlier, the most exciting thing is that users no longer need to face complex technical details. For example, in the past, people might have thought that to use blockchain features on Robinhood, users would need to download wallets, back up mnemonic phrases, connect to RPC servers, etc. But today, we see that blockchain technology can serve both technical users and ordinary users, providing a more seamless experience.

I believe that giving users the choice of self-sovereignty is very important, meaning users can transfer assets to their own wallets at any time or choose other custodial methods. This is a major core advantage of blockchain. However, I also do not believe that the next billion users will use blockchain through cumbersome operations like today. We need a more user-friendly experience to truly achieve this goal.

Defending Ethereum and Criticizing L2 Detractors

Laura:

Over the past year and a half, there has been a viewpoint that L2s like Arbitrum are "parasites" of Ethereum. While this statement may not be accepted by everyone, its core meaning is that L2s siphon off some value from the Ethereum main chain, such as transaction fees. Meanwhile, we have also seen that the "ultrasound money theory" has not fully realized its expected effects, and these changes are redefining the landscape of the industry.

I want to ask, with AJ, Vitalik, and Johann appearing together at a recent event, it seems that the Ethereum Foundation's attitude towards L2s is changing. So what does this moment mean for the Ethereum community? What is the relationship between Ethereum and L2s? Additionally, what is Vitalik's attitude towards DeFi ?

Steven:

I believe that the core values of the Ethereum community will not be weakened by this. In fact, I was one of the first to publicly share relevant details, and I can tell you that Vitalik is very supportive of the current progress. His active participation in events has already indicated this. While I cannot speak for him, based on my conversations with him, he is very excited about the current industry developments and sees this as an important victory for Ethereum.

For those who question the relationship between L1 and L2, especially those who think, "Do we really need L2? Why not put all functions on L1?", I believe their perspective may be too narrow. If you think the future of the crypto industry is merely what we saw a week ago, then you might feel there is no need to develop L2. But in reality, the development of the industry requires greater capacity. Institutions are entering the blockchain space on a large scale and have already expanded to 32 countries globally, building core applications on this technology. We need a scalable solution, and the development roadmap of L2 is the only path that can meet future demands.

For example, if you build a new road on a congested single-lane highway, some might say, "Why build so many lanes? Traffic isn't that congested now." But in reality, a new city is forming, and in the future, these lanes will be completely filled. We cannot keep building new lanes every year; we need a long-term solution. **Through the development roadmap of L2, we can transition from a single L1 platform to a more decentralized and efficient L2 ecosystem. While this process is not easy, once we solve the issue of **interoperability, we can achieve long-term sustainable development.

The Ethereum community has already crossed this hurdle, and while there are still some issues to resolve, we have essentially built a foundation to support future development. For example, Robinhood recently chose Ethereum as the core platform for its blockchain technology and launched crypto trading features based on Arbitrum. This is not just my personal view; Robinhood has also clearly stated that they chose Ethereum because it has the ecosystem that best fits their business, and Arbitrum is the best technical solution to achieve this goal.

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