Interview: Luke Belmar

Translation: Luccy, BlockBeats

One week before the official release of the JUP token, Luke Belmar, the founder of Capital Club, conducted an exclusive interview with Meow, the founder of Jupiter.

Before developing Jupiter, Meow served as the chief advisor for Instadapp, Kyber, and Blockfolio. He is also a co-founder of the largest Wrapped token wBTC and a founding contributor to the Handshake project. Currently, Meow is the founder of Raccoons Labs, developing the Solana liquidity aggregator Jupiter, the Solana liquidity protocol Meteora, and conducting cross-chain research with a strong interest in social infrastructure.

Many people know Luke Belmar as a successful entrepreneur, and his success is the result of a combination of digital advertising, e-commerce, direct sales, and investments in cryptocurrencies and NFTs. Luke Belmar once said, "Funds often stay away from those who chase them, but are easily attracted by those who realize that money is just a monopoly currency."

The interview program "Money Talks," hosted by Luke Belmar, focuses on exclusive conversations with some of the most outstanding thinkers in the business, entrepreneurial, and financial fields. In the latest episode, Luke Belmar and Meow discussed the "Currency Consensus Theory," around which Meow elaborated on unique insights into the operation of the crypto world and the role of Jupiter in this process.

Meow believes that the traditional financial system has created a beautiful illusion for people, making them live in an invisible prison. Cryptocurrency is the key to breaking this illusion. Meow realized that consensus is a very powerful force, shaping currency, and that consensus is the result of the collective efforts of the community. The construction of the crypto world cannot be separated from consensus. Compared to the invisible prison, cryptocurrency is like a garden, open to everyone and welcoming all to participate in its construction. Jupiter's goal is to become such a garden.

Therefore, Meow attaches great importance to the community ecology involved in building the garden. He pointed out that each different community should have its own characteristics and charm. In describing the Jupiter community, Meow likened it to a "global decentralized securities exchange," allowing anyone to trade on it, with all processes and details visible to everyone in the community.

BlockBeats has compiled the interview content as follows, with some parts omitted.

Currency Originates from Consensus

According to Meow's perspective, the "Currency Consensus Theory" refers to the necessity of inputting corresponding consensus in the process of creating currency. This process involves a form of control, where you actually have control. The purpose of this control is that if someone prints a large amount of virtual currency to a certain amount, the law will intervene and take mandatory measures to pursue and imprison them. This consensus is also reinforced through the government, central banks, and the entire network of different banks and branches.

In the "Currency Consensus Theory," the consensus of fiat currency comes from the ability to control and make people use this fiat currency. Meow cited the strong consensus in the Ethereum and Bitcoin communities as an example, pointing out that when there is enough consensus input, the currency is real.

In explaining this theory, Meow introduced the concept of "Infinite Tsukuyomi," a ninjutsu in the Japanese anime "Naruto," which can trap people in an eternal illusion, making them believe it is reality.

Traditional Financial Illusion

Luke Belmar: Let's start from the beginning. What brought you to where you are today?

Meow: I have been involved in many technology-related works, including social networks and viral marketing. I believe we were actually the first to create a recommendation system using social data. From a technological perspective, the initial recommendations were based on semantics, using phrases like "if you are a computer and technology." But we found that social data is more interesting than semantic data, so we built the recommendation engine based on it. For example, if you follow someone, through social data recommendations, you can communicate with someone else who follows them.

I successfully promoted it through a series of viral marketing methods. Therefore, I believe we have achieved a lot in this area and have always adhered to this concept. We tried various mechanisms, invented many new concepts, but it seems that there are still some missing parts, and it feels like something is not perfect. It's like if you try to build a fintech company, you are actually dealing with regulations. There's nothing wrong with that; it's a fact of life. I comply with all these rules, but I don't really like doing it.

I have always been very interested in economics and finance, but precisely because of this, every time I approach this field, I realize that every fintech company is not innovative; they are just building on the architecture of the entire stack. The entire architecture is huge and the underlying layer is immutable, including banks, credit card systems, processing systems, and energy systems.

Basically, I have to act according to this set of rules, but when I browse through all the economics books, I always feel that they are meaningless. All these valid theories, even the new concepts I have read, such as behavioral economics, are all wrong. These theories do not match what is happening in the real world; it's almost like saying that economics is a branch of pseudoscience.

And I never understand why the whole world is living in the "Infinite Tsukuyomi" ninjutsu. I studied economics in Silicon Valley, encountered various knowledge, and economics seemed like "Infinite Tsukuyomi" to me because there is no corresponding financial market, and all predictions are wrong. When everyone around you is in the "Infinite Tsukuyomi," how can you have the confidence to break through the inflationary social army? At this point, cryptocurrency appeared, and for the first time, I realized, "This is evidence that proves this audit is nonsense."

Luke Belmar: It's like catching a glimpse of the outside from a prison cell and realizing there is freedom out there.

Meow: Exactly. For example, one of the most effective ways the British used to control colonies was to instill the idea that "you are stupid, we are the best, your culture is inferior, everything is inferior." And people became submissive and believed in this rhetoric.

I think we have broken free from this mindset in many things, but when it comes to economics and other aspects, we are still using this coercive control method. Because it's actually difficult to control specific people, the only way to control them is through education. That's why governments around the world attach great importance to education and history, because what they tell people in the early stages of their lives can create an infinite economy. And cryptocurrency made me realize that all of this is illusory.

Luke Belmar: When did you first encounter cryptocurrency?

Meow: It was probably around 2013, maybe even earlier. I have a very good friend who is one of the top experts in the cryptocurrency field, and I was lucky to meet him at a Dogecoin party, and we started working together. At that time, I knew nothing about cryptocurrency, and I asked him, "Hey, how much do you know about cryptocurrency?" He said he knew nothing. Then I asked him repeatedly, "How much do you know about cryptocurrency?" and he still said he knew nothing. But we got along well; he had many ideas, was good at technical marketing, and I was good at coding. He also had a deep background in cryptography and financial systems, so we got along well.

If you look at all the academic textbooks, the most basic concept is price, whether it's left-wing or right-wing, everything is related to price. If you study economics textbooks, they all emphasize the importance of price. And usually, the price is fiat currency. So, the most important thing for economics majors is fiat currency, which can easily lead to problems. Apart from corruption, there is also the fact that 99% of the people in AEI (American Enterprise Institute) come from the same school. They live together, cook together, and despite having conflicting relationships, they are all friends.

Each of us has been forced to accept the concept of the fiat currency system from birth. Until Bitcoin was introduced, it told people, "You don't have to have something worth a trillion dollars or print something to introduce stimulus measures or achieve economic growth." So, "malfunction" occurred, such as Bitcoin and decentralized finance, and people began to question the status quo. Today, you see meme coins or new networks, they basically break our existing concepts.

This is a very good topic that delves into what real currency is. In the process of creating currency, corresponding consensus must be input. This process involves a form of control, where you actually have control. The purpose of this control is that if someone prints a large amount of virtual currency to a certain amount, the law will intervene and take mandatory measures to pursue and imprison them.

Luke Belmar: From a technical standpoint, if you have a replica of the currency, coin, or denomination imposed by a ruler or king, you are counterfeiting their power.

Meow: This power is also reinforced through the government, central banks, and the entire network of different banks and branches. So, the consensus of fiat currency comes from the ability to control and actually make people use this fiat currency. People have to accept fiat currency, otherwise they will be locked up in prison or somewhere else, and most importantly, this is achieved through consensus.

Now let's look at cryptocurrency. In crypto, how do you distinguish real currency from fake currency? I hope to explain this through a series of more technical concepts, such as liquidity, digital, widespread dissemination, number of holders, currency existence time, and so on, but these are all superficial. When there is enough consensus input, the currency is real.

For example, Ethereum has become real currency, and the entire network of people has put their life consensus into making this network work very well. Although I have done a lot of building on Solana, I want to say that Ethereum is amazing. The entire network is led by Vitalik, who has assembled a group of financiers, geeks, holders, enthusiasts, and creators of this consensus, so it has become real currency. A truly sincere human consensus is transformed into a series of other consensuses, such as proof of work, code, infrastructure, and so on.

If the government wants to create currency, there must be a central bank, they must coordinate, and there must be police to enforce, all of which require consensus. If done well, then there is currency. This is business, an almost illusory way of thinking. I like the consensus theory, the more a currency can represent a large network of many people and the result of real consensus input, the more real it is.

Luke Belmar: Because consensus cannot be created or destroyed, it can only be transformed, so fiat currency is not real. For example, when you create 6 trillion dollars out of thin air, you are not creating consensus, just an illusion. Calculated at $15 per hour, you have created about 400 billion hours of minimum wage labor out of thin air, injecting 400 billion hours of false human labor into the economic system to stimulate growth, but actually devaluing real labor value. So people think things are getting more and more expensive, not because the things themselves are getting more expensive, but by printing money to introduce false value, thus devaluing consensus and labor value.

Meow: I agree with you, the currency consensus theory is a very powerful way of looking at currency. It helps to understand why some economic policies lead to such unequal results. Because consensus is finite, and when you create currency out of thin air, you are actually stealing the value of people's real labor.

If you can create a system, print a certain amount of dollars, or other currency, and thus produce 400 billion human labor forces. This stimulus created the initial impetus, but it didn't work. Because the government cannot serve everyone, the government gives a very small group of people the power to allocate this money. Think about what happens when you give a large amount of money to a small group of people?

Luke Belmar: There is a saying that power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely. So once you can control the printing press, why wouldn't you print it and then give it to your friends, save your friends, and gamble like a corrupt gambler? You tweeted the other day that there is no difference between Degen and Wall Street guys, the only difference is that at least Degen and crypto are honest.

Meow: And I want to say, you can also become a Degen. I won't say that any Degen is better than Wall Street, after all, they are the same.

Luke Belmar: The difference is that the corrupt on Wall Street are like a bunch of bastards, and we have to deal with real consequences.

Meow: It's a very small club, and you have to work your way in step by step, each step proving your loyalty to this system, because every closed system demands loyalty, that's the game's rule. Your entire status, reputation, level, and power come from a part of this system. So now we live in this financial hierarchy, even including those who complain that everything is getting more expensive. When you and I talk about money, it's always so practical, very few people will seriously think about what money is when asked, most people can't even define money.

Jupiter Breaks the Illusion

Luke Belmar: What made you decide to fully immerse yourself and start building in the crypto field?

Meow: You can see from everything I've done that I'm actually an experimenter, not a theorist, which is an advantage for me. Many people are very theoretical, they will say they are in the crypto field, they are crypto people. You can find such people at many Bitcoin conferences, but I am more practical.

I didn't get involved early on, I think it's important to do things right. In the early days of the crypto field, the conversation was very theoretical, and I didn't think people could use Bitcoin. Because I'm not that interested in trading, but more interested in the use of things. That's why I built Jupiter, the most commonly used trading platform in DeFi, and built it on the most commonly used chain.

So my entry point was when crypto had developed to a certain extent, and I could start to have an impact. From then on, I started working with many very good projects. I want people to escape the "Infinite Tsukuyomi," so about three years ago, I started building wBTC, which is the most commonly used wrapped token in DeFi.

Luke Belmar: To break the Infinite Tsukuyomi, you must realize that you are in an illusion.

Meow: Here, many people have noticed that something is wrong. Why do all the economic reports show such good numbers, but I live a terrible life? Why do all the job reports say things are good, the economy is good, but the food I eat at Denny's is terrible? So people began to notice that economists' stuff is all nonsense. And then they got excited and amazed by new things, especially the accessibility of cryptocurrency. And most people started using cryptocurrency, so cryptocurrency is important, which is why I care so much about the word "use."

If most people only see cryptocurrency as a stock trading tool, then whether it's Robinhood, or buying Tesla, or buying Bitcoin, they all look the same, even though they are actually very different. Therefore, what is really important is the shift in mindset, which I call migration. We start guiding people to migrate, that cryptocurrency is not just another asset, but a completely different concept. You need to really see it and have a stunning feeling, like seeing the light. It's a parallel universe where you can do all sorts of things, such as sending money to others without much effort.

Luke Belmar: In traditional finance, I have to call the bank and get permission to send money, I need to know all the details related to the remittance to ensure the recipient is correct. In the crypto field, none of this happens.

Meow: Yes, banks have to follow procedures, that's the tradition we've built. But what's the difference between protection and freedom and regulation? In this construct, who are you really protecting? Although some say crypto is used for money laundering and terrorism, the dollar is also used for the same.

Luke Belmar: Because of blockchain, I can track every transaction that happens on Bitcoin, and even track fiat currency.

Meow: The protective measures may have been reached for some reason, accumulated over many years and other things. It has become a prison, people always think that the prison is a place where you can't get out, locking people inside, but they forget the other side of the prison, it is also very good at preventing foreign objects from entering. You can't bring toothpaste, you can't bring money in. The prison is like a secret box of currency, and people have created this prison.

Last week I was very angry because everyone in the crypto field was eagerly awaiting Gary Gensler's approval of a Bitcoin ETF. Because they have raised their expectations too high. When the SEC approved it, Larry Fink said it was the first step towards asset tokenization. Obviously, this means that BlackRock will build and own a Bitcoin ETF. Then Gary said, "We are actually violating Satoshi's vision, because ETFs mean we are centralizing crypto." He was very happy about this, as if he was really breaking the illusion of crypto by centralizing Bitcoin.

I don't hate banks, I don't hate the government, I don't hate the SEC, I love them, because they believe in their stuff and do their own work. The world is simple, you fight for your own things, so we must also believe in what belongs to us. So, I'm angry at our industry.

Look at BlackRock, they want a Bitcoin ETF because they will make money. No problem, that's their job, if I ran BlackRock, I would want to do the same, after all, I'm not a saint. But that's also why I never want to run the SEC, because I don't believe I can handle a billion dollars. I don't even believe I can have a hundred dollars in a casino, if you give me a thousand dollars in chips in a casino, I will spend all that money, that's the fact, I like money, I can't do anything.

You have to put yourself in a corrupt state, today you launched the Launchpad, and then tweeted to everyone explicitly not to invest in anything. Because one of the biggest problems with Launchpad is hyping up your own project. So I think putting yourself in a position where you cannot be corrupt technically, showing the world what's better, and that's what Jupiter does.

Currency is the Medium of Action

Based on the "Currency Consensus Theory," Meow explains that the important goal of the JUP token is to truly create communities, workgroups, and DAOs, compared to the prison-like nature of traditional financial norms, this community is more like a garden, its mission is to attract people and spread out. In this process, enough people have put in enough consensus and thoughts to make the token a medium of exchange.

Crypto Garden

Luke Belmar: You described the concept of prison as a closed ecosystem, but due to technological advancements and the formation of digital tribes, people have the ability to create their own ecosystems to compete with it, and it returns to the essence of currency. Currency used to be personalized by individuals, villages, and different companies, companies would issue their own currency, made by the private sector rather than the public sector.

Meow: Do you know what's the craziest thing in crypto right now? We are criticizing them while supporting them. Just like everyone hopes for the approval of the ETF, even the Bitcoin geeks. Of course, you can do whatever you want, but we should focus on building a completely great and amazing decentralized economy and so on, and then focus on developing that "garden". Take Jupiter for example, it's not like a prison, we have many users, but we can't lock them in, and we can't exclude people, it's indescribably wonderful.

Luke Belmar: Moreover, looking back at the DeFi operating model in 2017, first prepare a MetaMask wallet, if you want to participate in an ICO, you need to send your Ethereum to a random address to get some funds. But today, pick up your phone, download any mainstream wallet, enter the dApp area, click on Jupiter Exchange, and within two to five minutes, you can enter a very optimized alternative financial ecosystem.

Meow: This is the main driving force of Jupiter and the JUP token. One important goal of the JUP token is to truly create communities, workgroups, and DAOs, its mission is to attract people and spread out. And you can't build a prison, because Jupiter's culture doesn't like prisons.

Luke Belmar: Just like how centralized exchanges lose users once heavy KYC or significant restrictions are introduced.

Meow: Users don't want their money to be locked up, it's that simple. Many people ask me if I will do some token locking operations, I'm not interested in that. We live in a world that tends to build prisons, like Facebook and every company, every bank, every time you pay a subscription or buy printer consumables, people spend a lot of money and resources to build prisons.

Luke Belmar: For example, Apple, every time they change the charging port, users have to buy their cables, and can't buy from third parties, this is the concept of keeping people in a closed ecosystem.

Meow: There is currently a very interesting turning point happening, we are returning to the ancient era of private currency. Why did we transition from an era of having a lot of private currency to a virtual currency system, and then back to that era?

Let's first discuss the book "Cathedral and the Bazaar" by Apple (same name as the book by Eric Steven Raymond), it's a fascinating work. The book mentions that small groups are very effective in executing strategies, but it is very difficult to coordinate the entire army to execute. To achieve this, you need a very tight structure, like TSMC, a very famous chip company, they have a whole set of hierarchical structures, processors, test performance, and so on, all of which are to ensure everything is in order, and actually have built a very fast and efficient system.

On the other hand, the market is like an open network, everyone is doing their own thing, forming their own systems. For example, open source, which existed long before cryptocurrency, and the cryptography scene.

This network is often where many interesting things happen, culture is formed here, Burning Man is a good example, it covers both aspects. On the one hand, it is a market, bringing together 50,000 people, each doing their own thing. On the other hand, it acts as a cathedral, very precisely regulating everything. In short, they can form a small group, implement very strict rules, and at the same time have a crazy market, both systems have their advantages.

Now, adopting this view, returning to the previous topic. Today we live in a world where the fiat system is enforced by the state, the dollar is enforced in various ways. In fact, before the formation of the national currency system, banks had their own systems, and each town had its own system.

Letting "Tokens" Become "Currency"

Luke Belmar: Every ecosystem, no matter the size, has its own currency system, because currency is made by the private sector rather than the public sector.

Meow: Yes, and it should be clear that this concern is imposed on people, but at the same time people also want to trade between different currency systems, but this requires a way to enforce its legitimacy. It's different now, for example, on Solana, people have their own currency, there is a currency representing letters, with a community behind it, and so on.

Just like sending an email on Twitter, building a large email community, people can trade emails in this community, and you will believe that email. Now the coins in my hand can also be traded, but a big difference is that it can all be on the chain and trusted in its circulation. I can know everything, like how much can be exchanged, how much liquidity there is, because the numbers are there.

Therefore, blockchain is not the only answer, the community is. If I created a meow coin, I need to prove that there is enough consensus in the community to build the necessary support structure to support this currency. I don't like to call it a token, anyone creating a new coin or token should strive towards the direction of currency, this is a very high standard for many projects.

From a literal perspective, anyone can create a coin with the click of a button, but its value is actually lower than a sheet of toilet paper. A sheet of toilet paper goes through the process of cutting trees, packaging, and recycling, and I can calculate its value. But by creating some fancy graphics, you are just constantly making people buy coins, and then getting some consensus from people who want the coin to increase in value, but that's not real consensus, it's not sustainable.

I really like the consensus theory, it comes from every different discussion about currency-related topics. Currency is the medium of action, because enough people have put in enough consensus and thoughts to make it a medium of exchange.

Luke Belmar: People have waged wars for salt, and salt has been used as currency, which is why the word "salary" comes from "salt," because people used salt to pay wages in the past. So, enough people put in effort and consensus to maintain salt, package it, and distribute it, and the existence of this demand makes people willing to use it as currency.

Meow: Although salt is no longer used as currency due to scarcity and other reasons, as you said, it is a highly measurable thing, difficult to counterfeit, and people could indeed use it as real currency, even though it later became useless currency.

Luke Belmar: The premise of DeFi is to have a currency standard first, and due to technological advancements and developments, a new form of currency has emerged, allowing us to break free from standard restrictions.

Meow: There are too many scams in the crypto field, and Degen and Wall Street people are just as bad, and I'm also bad. If you put me in a position of leverage and fees, I might do worse things. But the important difference is, if I create a "Meow," I have to show that there is real consensus, attention, and sustainability behind it, it might take 10 to 15 minutes to show that I'm not just creating a "Meow," that's why the community is important.

Community Consensus Reflects Token Value

Meow believes that "community" has now become an overused term in the crypto field, and only strong consensus can truly be called a "community." In this community, the most important thing is the users, and all user suggestions and opinions must be taken seriously to make the community strong. As community managers, the most important thing is to understand what a community is. Every community must have its unique, genuine vision, atmosphere, and characteristics, which can reflect the true value of the currency.

Empowering Users to Become the Community

Luke Belmar: Let's talk about the importance of the community. In the last NFT craze, as long as you had ten thousand units of something, you had a community. This is a very interesting part of the crypto game, and it's also the reason for introducing Jupiter and JUP into the game. Just as the first interaction of many NFT projects with their community is a financial transaction, from the beginning, you have built a foundation, not just for financial gain, but for innovation, progress, and experimentation. Now the community wants more than just financial gain, they want to participate, to be a part, and to develop this garden with you.

Meow: We have a huge community that we are building. You understand this topic better than I do, "community" is actually one of the worst overused terms in the crypto field. When you create something, open a Discord, send five coins to those who join, and then a large group of people rush in, at that point you will tell everyone that you have a successful project because you have 20,000 Discord members, thinking you have a community.

It's like when I go to a comedy club, in the first minute I can say the stupidest things, like, "Hello, your mom is fat," and then they will laugh at everything I say. But a minute later, you have to put on a great show. I've tried comedy before, and I know that stand-up comedy is very real in this regard, and money is the same.

You can become a YouTube celebrity, call yourself a YouTuber, and then many people will rush in because they want to be part of the game. That's why the crypto field is so keen on hype, if you have any number of followers, people will hype you because they can make money, everyone is playing their own game. So you have to be very careful, if you don't sincerely show your commitment to the community, don't answer their questions, in the eyes of the community, you will be laughed at for a minute, and then become garbage.

Luke Belmar: So what is the role of a community leader? In the past, if you wanted to build a metropolis, utopia, or civilization, you needed to build it next to a freshwater source, just like Egypt was built next to the Nile. I think what the crypto community is looking for is leaders they can trust, who won't deceive them to destroy the Nile, but really build around it. The job of a community leader is to maintain the integrity of the community, and anything built around it is just a byproduct that can protect the community.

Meow: That's a very good point. We care about our foundation, so we are very willing to protect the Nile, the Nile is like a life form, its integrity maintains our things.

But the problem in the industry right now is that when a celebrity is willing to promote us, we think maybe some "fertilizer" is a good thing, but it's toxic. When you pour a bunch of fertilizer into the river, but it grows like algae, in turn polluting the river. That's the situation in crypto today, although we talk about integrity, decentralization, and community, the fact is, once there is an opportunity, we are all very willing to pour fertilizer into the river.

At first glance, fertilizer is not bad, but it can mess everything up. I always say we can accept scams, but we are too willing to accept anything that is hyped, which doesn't mean we are fools. Because I understand how important it is to use consensus, I never thought about it before, and people have been asking me about Tokens, so I want to talk about using consensus.

In fact, a year ago, we were already very popular. But at that time, I felt it was time to take a step forward, to convert these users into a community, so we had consensus. That's why my Solana Breakpoint hackathon speech was considered the best, because there was accumulated consensus, and we wrote everything for it. Everyone knows Jupiter, everyone is using Jupiter, everyone wants to know what Jupiter is going to do next, everyone wants JUP tokens. I also want it, and I am looking forward to the upcoming airdrop.

I think I have the entire community and some people who trust us, because we have built integrity for many years, committed to user experience, committed to users, committed to technology, committed to the ecosystem, and so on. For example, because we integrate many systems, we are often used as a testing ground, and testing always goes wrong, after all, when they are embedded in our system, they will be overwhelmed and crash by a large number of users and orders. But people don't know this, after the system crashes, users don't take over, but choose to ask for a solution, so we fully accept these complaints.

We are like a pair of shoes, because that's what the entire community has to use. Even though there have been many problems, mistakes, and downtime in the past year, the community has seen the amount of work we have done, from the entire stack to the community and management ecosystem, which has accumulated enough consensus for us, creating willingness and trust.

Someone tweeted to me, "You had three years to prepare for the token launch, why is it still so slow, useless." I said, "I don't deny that I'm useless, I'm a clown with an IQ of zero, but for the past three years, I haven't been preparing for the token, I've been thinking about every part of the product, working with every DEX and platform provider to ensure integration. For the past three years, I've been communicating with the ecosystem, trying to support the ecosystem when things go wrong. For the past three years, whenever something happens, morale is low, I'm there, supporting it with words. For the past three years, I've been under review in the community. That's what I've been doing for the past three years."

Luke Belmar: JUP essentially, as a unit, does not have value in itself, its value is given by the past three years and everything built in the future, and the community and individuals that make it up.

Meow: Yes, if you issue a good token today, its value is not in what the founder tells you he's going to do, not in saying what he won't do, but in doing what he said. So the value of the token becomes threefold. First is the past, the consensus you have accumulated, materializing what people want. Second is the present, what you are saying now. Third is the future.

So you've turned the value of the token into something concrete, and interestingly, you won't find this in any economics textbook. Every Wall Street textbook and technical analysis makes some nonsense statements, such as the price-earnings ratio. Look at Tesla, look at GameStop, look at anything, it's all obviously nonsense.

For example, the Singapore dollar, Singapore is a small country and can print money at will. But if you just print money, it will devalue in comparison to the US dollar. The reason the US dollar can do whatever it wants is because the narrative is the US dollar index, and the index basically cannot devalue against other things. So, once the US dollar devalues, or the index devalues, everything is screwed.

This is interesting because everything is based on the index, and all economics textbooks are based on the index, so we don't even know what's happening. When women on TikTok start complaining about a certain group, it's because everything is based on the index, and the index has been severely abused, the entire financial system operates on this index.

Embracing Community Uniqueness

Luke Belmar: There are many builders in the crypto field, and crypto is often ruthless, challenging, tense, anxious, and stressful for builders. Now, a new generation of crypto builders is about to emerge, and for these newcomers, they may feel anxious about building a community and products that may be criticized. What advice do you have for the new generation?

Meow: The most important thing is to understand what a community is, you really need to have your own insight into the community. Because every community must have its unique, genuine vision, and every great community has its own atmosphere and characteristics, it's unique. Someone once said a great thing, every great idea is different. When you talk to special people, their way of speaking is different, their thoughts are different.

Similarly, in community building, you have to embrace your uniqueness. Every successful community like Ethereum, Bitcoin, etc., has its own atmosphere and characteristics, and Jupiter hopes to be the same. You can't be afraid of this, you need to face it head-on. Although not facing it head-on will make you more comfortable, after all, if you do things completely according to others' ways, you won't be criticized.

If you were to launch a Meme coin today, would you follow the old routine, first build a group to sell, then recruit followers, and tell everyone it will rise? This approach is no different from the millions of others. I'm not exaggerating, there are indeed some Meme coin teams now, able to create 30 to 40 coins every day, hoping to attract investment, and for them, there is almost no cost because Twitter and everything else is free. So if you fail, it's just because you were too slow and didn't scale.

You should know that today there are indeed some teams, somewhere, gradually copying Uniswap's code, and then doing some community activities. This has become an industry, but they can never be you, so being yourself is your only advantage. That's why Jupiter is successful, because everyone knows Jupiter has always been here and will always be here.

Luke Belmar: You've been working in this field for three years, what are your prospects for the future in the mid and long term?

Meow: The mid-term is simple. I'm not an idealist, I'm very focused on materializing, which means I will materialize a certain future, turning an idea into reality through consensus. This is not a mysterious fairy tale. Because everyone is vision-oriented, and the easiest way to get a vision is to open ChatGPT and let it give me a vision about something. And our difference is that users let us materialize the vision.

Beautiful vision statements that any third-grader can write, but how many people can inspire a large group of people to have a common vision, a common idea? Very rare. Ultimately, materializing a specific idea, a specific spirit, a specific cultural need requires real commitment and integrity.

So in terms of the mid-term vision, I want a lower entry barrier, first and foremost, it should be lightweight and frictionless. I have always tried to work with everyone I need to work with, trying to build a decentralized meta. Meta is like the air that can freely enter and exit the prison and cannot be stopped, and it's hard to get.

Jupiter is in a very good position to be a good entry point for those who want to move activities from centralized networks to decentralized networks, that's what we want to achieve. We are starting to migrate people over and show them that they can see all the cool things here and get involved.

Vision of Jupiter

Luke Belmar: I would like you to share your long-term vision with everyone. In the grand vision of how decentralized finance will begin to permeate the entire world, what role will Jupiter play?

Meow: I prefer to say it will permeate among the people like oxygen. Once you have a group of people playing games, we can do some amazing things, like remittances and operations. But what you need is a market. For example, a Singapore dollar/US dollar market, a Philippine peso/US dollar market, the entire transaction can be completed between these two markets. The entire process of the transaction costs almost zero, you don't have to go anywhere, and you don't have to do anything. I think it can be done completely now, we are very close to achieving it.

For example, in many crypto companies today, we no longer pay in fiat currency, but in USDC or USDT. So when there is an exit from stablecoins to banks or wallets, all these forex issues can be resolved. And Jupiter will build these markets along with the ecosystem.

Then you can pay for anything you want, and the fees will be very small. Most importantly, the entire process is basically transparent. If you pay 1%, you can completely know where that 1% went. You can know how many security devices the platform has, and how much the provider will earn. Being able to do this is based on the premise that Jupiter is the largest routing system, routing about 80% of the traffic.

For example, in a stock exchange, once listed, you cannot reach users, or the media, you just get a bunch of garbage. But if we have a listing process, a global decentralized stock exchange, I call it GDSE. So when you list, any investor can see your authenticity, including whether it is trading, the commercial nature, and the authenticity of the product, and what people are talking about. It's a whole, that's what Jupiter wants to build.

Suppose you are a medium-sized e-commerce company, looking to raise funds and other things, who would be a better judge of your product or company? Some random auditors from Wall Street or someone else? It's the community, the people using the product, interacting with it, so you have to get all users involved in the community to build real credibility. Once the community starts supporting you, they can also help you improve.

Luke Belmar: Now the entire stock exchange is operated by robots, Wall Street, and some actors, the only reason the stock market is rising is because people keep pouring garbage into the stock market. And the fact is, suppose today I buy $100,000 worth of meta stocks, I'm not part of the community. But in fact, the little guy doesn't seek the power to make the rules, just wants to participate.

Meow: Once someone becomes part of the business, they become very involved and want to empower employees. Although the community is the most important, ignoring money would be foolish, and ignoring people's desire to be part of interesting things would also be foolish. The reason we want to build a global decentralized exchange is because anyone can try to list, let the entire community act as auditors, they audit you and help you. Decentralized initial public offerings, decentralized crowdfunding will happen.

You have a global decentralized market ecosystem, and all forex markets, including some junk coins and meme coins, all types of coins are in this market. You can use the token proceeds you recently received to buy something, and then transfer it to someone else. All of this will happen on one network.

Luke Belmar: You have a grand vision for Jupiter DAO, please tell us how you are building the Jupiter DAO ecosystem.

Meow: Given the potential for more possibilities in the current DAO, I think DAO is a bit foolish. Every DAO in the crypto ecosystem seems to be limited and has a very narrow agenda. For example, the agenda of Uniswap DAO is to manage Uniswap governance, token quantity, and so on, but the Australian Competition and Consumer Commission (ACCC) will only choose the suppliers they want because they have voting rights. Even some great DAOs, such as MakerDAO, have turned the very cool concept of DAI into managing returns, managing finances, ensuring project growth, and paying large amounts of funds, and so on.

I want to build the most vibrant, forward-looking, and non-professional community in the crypto field, with the agenda of building this metaverse, which is migration. This requires three elements. First, people need to stop using banks or Western Union for remittances. Second, you need a large enough market, a truly ambitious entrepreneur who has the willingness and ability to prove that people are willing to cooperate with him. Now, if I ask any ecosystem if they are willing to cooperate with Jupiter, they will almost all say yes. Maybe we will mess it up after January, but for now, this is a cake in front of us.

Third, you need a single network to bring all markets together in one place, such as the GDSE I mentioned, which means providing real value to businesses. Because you need migration, you need a bridge, and GDSE is that bridge.

These three things are not separate steps, but parallel. First, attract users, then make markets. Remember, you don't need tokens, you need markets, this is where people always get confused. For example, if you create a Philippine peso/US dollar market, but it won't be discovered, but if you create a market on Solana or a future network, it will be discovered. It will be recorded in everyone's account, and everyone can transfer anything they want to that market.

No matter how many different types of markets are in one network, it hasn't been achieved yet, but this is the way to break the illusion. In fact, for those in first-world countries like the US or Singapore, they may think prison is comfortable, but what about people in Africa, Central America, and South America? Those people cannot access banking services and traditional tools.

What we need to do is open the books and prove to the community that we are excellent, make the community welcome you, and then start migrating. My goal is an IPO, but few can IPO because it has to go through a bank. But imagine there is enough capital on the chain, when you want to support a business, you actually only need to buy a token, open Jupiter, and buy it. For example, if you have a certain amount of tokens to shop at an ice cream store, you will get ice cream. Whenever I share this idea, people always think it's still far away, but it's not, it depends on the consensus and the number of people committed to building it. If you want to change, you have to be the change itself, not just expect change to happen to you, but to get involved, roll up your sleeves, and engage in the necessary consensus.

You need to find evidence to prove this, which is something people cannot fail to understand, and it's what I hate the most. People now just want to satisfy themselves, and to feel satisfied, they are willing to look for anything except evidence. For example, people are willing to seek the celebrity effect, Microsoft or Google. If Microsoft and Google approve a company, they feel satisfied, but if Microsoft and Google don't invest, they don't think it's a great company. Microsoft and Google are great companies, but they haven't proven anything in the blockchain field.

Scammers are like mosquitoes, you can't blame mosquitoes because they are just trying to find food. So don't blame scammers, blame yourself, take full responsibility. If you want change, you have to be the change. As an industry, really start thinking about how to do things. At a very high level, many things are going wrong now, the world's understanding of money and community is wrong.

We support meta, maintain practicality through migration, and then bring in many businesses they know and love into meta, by then, crypto will no longer just be an asset class, we will successfully establish crypto as a way of life, that's our next step.

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