Interviewee: Victor, Founder of Manta

Interviewer: Xiyou, ChainCatcher

In less than 4 months, Manta has successfully completed two major migrations. First, it shifted from Polkadot to Ethereum Layer2, and its Layer2 network is about to migrate from OP Stack to Polygon CDK.

Manta was originally built on the Polkadot Substrate framework as a ZK Layer1 privacy network and participated in the Polkadot parachain slot auction in 2021. In July of this year, Manta announced the development of its own EVM Layer2 layer, Manta Pacific, based on OP Stack, and renamed its Layer1 network from Manta to Manta Atlantic. At that time, the Manta ecosystem will consist of two parts: the ZK Layer1 network Manta Atlantic and the Layer2 network Manta Pacific.

Within a week of publicly announcing the launch of the Layer2 plan, Manta Network developer p0x labs announced a $250 million financing at a valuation of $5 billion, led by Polychain Capital and Sequoia Capital.

In September, Manta Pacific went live. In October, Manta officially announced that the Layer2 network Manta Pacific will migrate from OP Stack to the zkEVM architecture of Polygon CDK.

According to DefiLlama data, as of December 4th, the TVL of the Layer2 network Manta Pacific was $26 million, ranking in the top ten among all Rollup scaling solutions. According to the browser, the number of transactions on the mainnet has reached 2.7 million, with 215,000 transactions on November 26th alone, over 280,000 wallet addresses, and the data has been consistently trending upwards.

In addition, the ecological development of the Layer2 network Manta Pacific is also thriving, with over 150 ecological partners and on-chain applications covering DeFi, zk technology games, social products, and the MantaFest ecological incentive event has entered its second round.

From Polkadot to Ethereum Layer2, and then from OP Stack to Polygon CDK, each migration decision by Manta presents a new challenge, but from the operational data, each migration has brought new opportunities and growth potential for Manta.

Although Manta originally originated from the Polkadot ecosystem, it did not stagnate with the development of the Polkadot ecosystem, but actively explored new possibilities, eventually breaking away from the Polkadot ecosystem and establishing its own independent ecosystem.

Recently, ChainCatcher invited Manta founder Victor to discuss a series of questions about "the reasons behind Manta's series of actions, such as the transition from the Polkadot parallel chain ecosystem to Ethereum Layer2, and the subsequent migration from Op Stack to Polygon CDK, as well as its ecological development."

Leaving Polkadot for Ethereum

1. ChainCatcher: What prompted you to get involved in the Web3 field? Do you think your previous personal or work experience has been helpful for your involvement in Web3? What are your main responsibilities at Manta now?

Manta Founder Victor: I got involved in cryptocurrency around 2017. Before that, I was working in Israel, which was my first job after graduating from university and was a very unique experience. I was involved in investments and got in touch with a lot of new technologies, and it was during that time that I learned about blockchain technology and subsequently got involved in some cryptocurrency-related investments. In the previous cycle, I also worked in a cryptocurrency fund.

In 2018, I chose to continue my studies at the Harvard Kennedy School, majoring in economics and public management, and took some courses at MIT, including the "Blockchain and Money" course taught by Gary Gensler, who is currently the chairman of the SEC. I met Kenny Li, co-founder of Manta, who was a teaching assistant for the MIT blockchain course at the time. There were some research topics related to ZK in this class, and we also participated in a government project in collaboration with the Monetary Authority of Singapore, which was a government project on interbank CBDC payment systems. I remember writing an article about ZK KYC, discussing how to use zero-knowledge proof technology to achieve KYC for the banking system, which is still published on the MIT website, and Gary Gensler was the supervising professor of this article. It was from this article that we started to choose to develop ZK-related applications.

In the initial stage of Manta in 2020, we focused on privacy and developed on-chain privacy payment products such as Manta Pay. Now, Manta has become a general-purpose privacy layer for ZK applications, also known as the ZK Application layer.

In terms of my previous experience, I studied in the UK, then worked in Israel, and returned to the US for further studies and work, leading a globally mobile lifestyle. The cryptocurrency industry happened to allow me to continue this lifestyle, making both work and life more international. This is also what Manta has been doing, not limiting itself to a specific region and focusing on international markets, allowing ZK and blockchain technology to be truly adopted. From the perspective of my personal background, growing up in China and receiving education both domestically and internationally, I am more open, focused, and diligent in my work.

Now, the Manta team has expanded a lot, and I am mainly responsible for product engineering architecture, ecosystem development, as well as BD, ecosystem growth, and team building.

2. ChainCatcher: Manta was originally built on the Polkadot Substrate framework as a Layer1 privacy network and participated in the Polkadot parachain slot auction in 2021. However, in July of this year, Manta announced the development of its own EVM Layer2 layer based on OP Stack. What prompted this move? Why develop your own Layer2?

Manta Founder Victor: This actually shows that Manta has taken a very different path. In fact, when Manta started in 2020, very few people thought that a ZK privacy network was a worthwhile project to focus on, but we have always insisted on exploring applications in this area.

When we built the entire ZK architecture of Polkadot, we found that the architecture was not user-friendly, especially in terms of cross-chain interaction with Ethereum. In addition, the development and growth of the entire Polkadot ecosystem in 2022 stagnated, to the point where many of the products developed on Manta were not seen or used by more people.

This year, after Manta developed the EVM chain, we found that the speed of growth of on-chain applications and users, as well as the increasing number of ecosystem partnerships, presented greater development potential for the ZK application layer. This is also why Manta is currently more focused on doing well in Layer2.

In addition, Manta did not completely abandon the products on Polkadot after participating in the Polkadot slot auction, but rather continued to operate the original Polkadot parallel chain network while adding a Layer2 layer. From a personal perspective, this move is also a new product roadmap added by the Manta team after delivering on previous commitments, which not only fulfills its obligations to the community but also brings more growth opportunities.

3. ChainCatcher: Many users interpret Manta's departure from the Polkadot ecosystem as a "self-rescue" for the project. What is your view on this perspective?

Manta Founder Victor: I do not deny that it is a self-rescue. From a personal perspective, first of all, in the early stages of development, Manta not only needed to build ZK-related infrastructure but also needed to build things at the bottom layer of Polkadot. When all of this was built, Polkadot no longer had users.

This is actually a matter of project values. If the Polkadot official pays great attention to on-chain behavior and infrastructure construction (Builder), we would have continued, but currently, it does not seem to prioritize on-chain behavior and instead focuses on PR. This does not align with Manta's values, as we place great emphasis on on-chain data and real user numbers.

As of now, there isn't even a mature cross-chain bridge from the native Polkadot chain to EVM on the Polkadot chain. Additionally, the user experience of Polkadot wallets has not been well-implemented, and there is no native wallet with a good user experience within the ecosystem. We spent four months developing a wallet ourselves, which has been downloaded over 300,000 times. Some Polkadot native wallets claim to support all chains, but even after two years, they only have around 60,000 users. This clearly does not align with our values.

However, when working with Celestia and Polygon, our values are very much aligned, especially in terms of ecosystem development and providing standards for infrastructure. This collaboration does not present these issues, and it is a learning experience for our own development and growth. But I do not believe that "Manta has already left Polkadot." We will continue to deliver products on Polkadot in a normal manner, but that does not mean I support every action of the official Polkadot.

Currently, Manta is the first EVM Layer2 on Celestia and the largest ecosystem network on Celestia's infrastructure. Additionally, Manta is the first project to choose to migrate from OP Stack to Polygon CDK, with many innovative modular behaviors at the underlying level.

4. ChainCatcher: What is the current positioning of the Manta network? What roles do the parallel chain Manta Atlantic and the Layer2 network Manta Pacific play? What is the relationship between the two, and what are the future development directions?

Manta Founder Victor: The future will be a process of migration. If Polkadot continues to develop in its current state, we will gradually migrate and focus on Layer2, but Layer1 is currently running normally. Its main direction includes ensuring secure staking, providing basic liquidity for DeFi, and some identity and ecosystem products.

For example, in April of this year, Manta launched the ZK-based NFT/SBT LaunchPad issuance platform NPO, minting over 600,000 ZKSBT in four months, with over 20 project partnerships. This data is all from the chain, publicly transparent, and accessible to anyone. However, this has not brought effective exposure, mainly because Polkadot does not value on-chain data.

However, Layer2 has shown our strengths, strong operational capabilities, and aggressive strategies for ecosystem development, achieving good results in Layer2 development. Manta started doing Layer2 in July, went live in September, and announced the migration from OP Stack to Polygon in October, with significant progress and breakthroughs every month. Since going live in September, there is now a TVL of 28 million.

But from a personal perspective, this growth rate is just the beginning, and there will be many more actions later on. In terms of operations, Manta and Polygon are very similar, focusing on ecosystem recognition. Although they are backed by the entire Asian project, they are targeting the global market and attracting builders from all over the world. This is the core value of Manta, providing a fair stage for builders from all over the world, without favoring certain assets or races, which is unique and powerful for Manta.

5. ChainCatcher: As a native project in the Polkadot ecosystem, what do you think of the current development status of Polkadot? Recently, there have been increasing negative issues such as layoffs, slow ecosystem development, and stagnant growth. As someone who was once seen as the future of cross-chain interoperability, what do you think are the reasons for Polkadot's current development difficulties? As an ecological project, what development suggestions or messages do you have for the Polkadot official?

Manta Founder Victor: From my personal perspective, I do not agree with the current development approach and values of Polkadot, but I still contribute and fulfill what needs to be done, and Manta has not betrayed its commitments.

There must be reasons for Polkadot's development to reach its current state, and the reason is the lack of emphasis on on-chain behavior and excessive emphasis on PR.

For example, there was excessive emphasis on the cooperation with Deloitte, but this cooperation did not directly bring on-chain behavior, and the developers who directly bring on-chain behavior did not receive sufficient incentives, leading to a situation where real builders are not willing to continue building on Polkadot. This is the problem. In contrast, the Solana network also does PR and even makes phones, but its developers receive sufficient incentives for anything they do on-chain, leading to a positive development. The KILT protocol, which Polkadot officially supports, is also a project in cooperation with Deloitte, with only 10,000 addresses in total and only 200 active addresses per day.

From a personal perspective, the strong support of such projects by the Polkadot official is a contempt for builders. The core focus is on external false prosperity, rather than actual practical use cases, and this prosperity is not sustainable. In fact, Arbitrum has created a good example, paying great attention to and valuing on-chain behavior, providing sufficient incentives for on-chain growth projects, which will lead to positive growth and bring value to the free market.

6. ChainCatcher: Have you had any communication with the Polkadot official about the current issues? What is their attitude towards developers?

Manta Founder Victor: We have communicated several times, but they do not care, especially about Asian developers. This is why Manta aims to create a fair environment for all developers, treating Indian, Chinese, and all other European and American developers equally. But Polkadot is not like this, and I personally do not think the Polkadot official treats Chinese projects the same as white projects. There may have been many rug pulls by Chinese and Asian projects in the past, but this does not mean that all Chinese projects should be treated differently, which is unfair to developers.

Abandoning OP Stack for Polygon CDK

7. ChainCatcher: After launching the Manta Pacific testnet based on OP Stack, Manta announced in October that Manta Pacific will migrate from OP Stack to the zkEVM architecture of Polygon CDK. Why did you decide to migrate to Polyon CDK after confirming the OP Stack solution? What were the reasons for this change?

Manta Founder Victor: In fact, the Chinese community now refers to Manta as "Lü Bu of the crypto world," switching from Polkadot to OP and then to Polygon. In reality, it's four, including Celestia.

First, our migration is seamless for users, which is the best user experience we have promised. For users, the migration process for Manta Pacific, using the Layer2 architecture, is like adding a Prover on OP Stack, which is Polygon CDK. The good thing is that users can perceive that the withdrawal time is getting shorter. Currently, the approval takes 3 days, but later withdrawals will be immediate, which is the advantage of ZK and why we chose to migrate.

Secondly, the user experience will be better, and the cost will be lower. First, at the Prover level, both Manta and Polygon are ZK Prover architectures, which will lower the cost of generating proofs, benefiting both Polygon and Manta. Additionally, there will be no waiting period for user withdrawals, such as the Challenge period.

The block time will be shorter, and the cost will be lower. Previously, every transaction, whether a real transaction occurred or not, needed to be retained, resulting in relatively higher costs. After the migration, only real transactions will be retained on the chain, reducing costs significantly. It will also be more friendly for game deployment, which is valuable from a technical and user and developer experience perspective.

From a personal perspective, I don't care whether it belongs to Ethereum or OP. In the OP Stack ecosystem, Manta is the third largest TVL project after Base. After migrating to Polygon, Manta is the only project in the Polygon ecosystem that has not issued a token. Therefore, resources will be supported in any ecosystem, but Polygon is better in providing more BD support, which will accelerate the current development of the Manta ecosystem, and it is exactly what is needed.

Therefore, for the prosperity of the entire ecosystem and a better user experience, what Manta is doing coincides with the ZK narrative, not because ZK is popular, but because Manta has been doing ZK-related content for over three years and doesn't mind doing more or less. It's just a matter of choosing infrastructure for a better user experience. Additionally, the cost of choosing in a modular world is very low.

8. ChainCatcher: As the first project to switch from OP Stack to Polygon CDK halfway, you have had a deep experience with these two development stacks. What do you think is the biggest difference between OP Stack and Polygon CDK? Do you have any experiences to share with developers or users interested in these two stacks?

Manta Founder Victor: First of all, both of these stack solutions are very user-friendly. For building a chain, both OP Stack and Polygon CDK are the best choices, with low costs, easy scalability, and the most comprehensive tool support.

In addition, the OP Stack solution is more mature and has fewer obstacles, while ZK costs are higher, as Prover costs are added. Furthermore, Polygon CDK has not been online for long, so it still needs more time for evaluation. Overall, both solutions have their own advantages, and these advantages are currently visible.

9. ChainCatcher: The L2 Stacks track has launched several developer stack solutions, including OP Stack, Arbitrum Orbit, ZK Stack of zkSync, Polygon CDK, and StarkNet Stacks. What advice do you have for developers who want to build their own Layer2 and are considering which L2 Stacks solution to use?

Manta Founder Victor: Network effects are important. For example, OP Stack has Base, opBNB, which has generated a large network effect. Polygon has Manta, Immutable, Canto, Astar, and other large projects. Some new stack solutions are still in the early stages, with smaller tracks and ecosystems, and they need time to develop, which is a difference.

Additionally, developers' choices of these large projects are based more on technical completeness. Both OP Stack and Polygon CDK are mature and have not encountered any problems in use. Of course, our technical team has spent a lot of time, including our partners Caldera, OP, and Polygon ZK technical teams, who have shown a very professional attitude in communication.

10. ChainCatcher: It has been three months since Manta announced the launch of the Ethereum Layer2 network. What changes or narrative trends has this transformation brought to the Manta network?

Manta Founder Victor: First is modularity. The launch of Celestia represents the beginning of the modular era, and Manta Pacific is currently the largest execution layer for modularity. This is the first trend. The second is zkEVM. Manta is the first network to migrate from OP to zkEVM, which will also be a future trend. Even the OP official is doing related content, introducing ZkProof and migrating to zkEVM.

Furthermore, Manta aims to be a zk Application layer, unlocking new features of Ethereum and making it easier for Solidity developers to unlock these new features. By using ZK technology to do this, the underlying layer will be cheaper, faster, and more scalable. While other Layer2 networks have expanded Ethereum, they have not unlocked new features of Ethereum, or like Starkware, they have new features, but developers need to learn a new programming language, which will be costly.

11. ChainCatcher: According to the L2BEAT website, there are already over 30 Layer2 networks. Currently, Manta Pacific has a TVL of $27 million, ranking 20th in the Layer2 track, and many applications are also building their own Layer2. What advantages do you think the Manta Pacific network has compared to other Layer2 networks?

Manta Founder Victor: As mentioned earlier, Manta is focused on the zk Application layer, aiming to unlock new features of Ethereum and make it easier for Solidity developers to unlock these new features. By using ZK technology to do this, the underlying layer will be cheaper, faster, and more scalable. While other Layer2 networks have expanded Ethereum, they have not unlocked new features of Ethereum, or like Starkware, they have new features, but developers need to learn a new programming language, which will be costly.

12. ChainCatcher: As a standalone network, the prosperity of the ecosystem often becomes an important indicator of whether a chain is successful. What strategies has Manta Pacific adopted for ecosystem development? How did it carve out a place among the many Layer2 networks?

Manta Founder Victor: The Manta official provides great support for the development of the ecosystem, supporting all projects equally, as long as it is beneficial for the development of Manta. This support includes early project support, financing assistance, assistance in obtaining more users and greater growth in the later stages, and working together to generate better on-chain data.

Regarding ecosystem development strategies, each project has its own characteristics. From a personal perspective, the first is to support more native projects. Basically, every week, we actively promote some ZK projects, such as the previous full-chain games Gabby World, zkHoldem, which are native projects on Manta and have performed very well in on-chain data. These are the types of native projects we strongly support and grow with. The second is cooperation between ecosystems, such as the Celestia TIA token. Manta's DeFi products such as Aperture, PacificSwap, LayerBank, KiloEx, will provide more application scenarios for the Celestia Token. This is actually a collaborative effort within the entire ecosystem, which is not available on other chains.

13. ChainCatcher: Currently, a large number of applications and Layer1 networks are announcing their move to the Layer2 market. How do you view this phenomenon? What kind of landscape do you think the Layer2 market will present in the future?

Manta Founder Victor: I personally think that everyone will have their own characteristics, and ultimately there may not necessarily be more Layer2 networks, but having their own characteristics will be more advantageous. For Manta, the focus is still on zk Application, allowing ZK to have more application scenarios and making the most of this feature.

14. ChainCatcher: How is the progress of the Manta token MANTA? What role will the MANTA token play in the future of the Manta ecosystem? Have community users discussed updates to the MANTA token economic model?

Manta Founder Victor: Yes, there will be some updates to the economic model, but the issuance of the token will become clearer as the ecosystem develops. There are some plans currently, but it is more about having a better economic model to support the ecosystem's development. However, the current focus and center are still on ecosystem construction.

Development and Application of ZK

15. ChainCatcher: The concept of ZK was mentioned multiple times at this year's Denver conference, but from the current development perspective, the products in the ZK track are still mainly infrastructure networks like zkEVM. There are fewer application products. How do you view the current development of ZK? What are the challenges in popularizing ZK applications?

Manta Founder Victor: There is still too little focus on productization, in my opinion. We are still very concerned about the use cases of ZK. From another perspective, the DAU (daily active users) of ZK applications can reach at least 60-70 million people, and many ZK research and projects do not care about these data. However, from Manta's perspective, we hope to make ZK useful, which is a completely different value and most projects do not share this view. It will take time to push forward how it can be useful and what kind of impact it will have. Personally, I think there are very few practical applications for ZK at the moment, but there have been breakthroughs in areas such as credentialing and full-chain games.

16. ChainCatcher: In the ZK track, which tracks and scenario application products do you have the most confidence in?

Manta Founder Victor: In the long run, it will definitely not be just about scaling. There are still many other things that can be done. From a user perspective, credentialing and gaming are two relatively easy things to break into. We hope that many ZK applications will use ZK technology, but it should not be necessary to convey to users that it is a ZK application in order to generate value. In other words, people will really use the application because it is useful, not just because it is a ZK application.

17. ChainCatcher: In mid-November, the Devconnect conference was held in Istanbul, Turkey, where Manta was the initiator of the ZKDay event. Compared to the Denver conference in March this year, what differences or progress do you think there will be in the ZK-related topics at this conference?

Manta Founder Victor: The biggest difference between these two events is that research and engineering research projects have gradually become projects that users can perceive. In simple terms, ZK used to be mostly in the research stage, but now there are practical applications that users can use. Previously, it was "Builder for Technology," and now it is "Builder for User." Additionally, there have been no new additions from a research perspective, but there are projects that have made some user-based products from a practical perspective. Furthermore, concepts like Multi-Prover and proof market are good directions, but whether they can be truly user-friendly and adopted will still take a lot of time.

18. ChainCatcher: As a student of Professor Gary Gensler, how do you view his strict regulatory policies in the crypto field?

Manta Founder Victor: He has his own thoughts and purposes for doing this, hoping to protect investors. The FTX incident shows that there are problems, and there is still a long way to go for regulation. It is fortunate that someone who understands cryptocurrency well is doing this, but unfortunately, although he understands the cryptocurrency industry, his approach has not had a very positive impact on the industry.

Summary of 2023 and Future Predictions

20. ChainCatcher: What are the team's current focus areas in the industry?

Manta Founder Victor: From a personal perspective, the first is the development of Ethereum and new use cases on the chain; the second is the development progress of ZK technology, and how to make more breakthroughs; the third is hoping that things can progress smoothly according to the planned expectations, and being able to follow up on more things.

21. ChainCatcher: What predictions do you have for the upcoming crypto market?

Manta Founder Victor: First, I believe that the value of Ethereum in the future may surpass that of Bitcoin; second, the prosperity and activity of Layer2 may surpass Ethereum, or surpass all Layer1 in the next cycle; finally, the narrative driven by the industry will definitely be more decentralized than the previous cycle, and the things that can generate value this time will definitely be more decentralized.

22. ChainCatcher: Where do you think the breakthrough for large-scale applications of Web3 lies? Which tracks have this potential? What are the top three tracks you are most optimistic about in 2024?

Manta Founder Victor: First, I am very optimistic about fully on-chain games for real growth; second, things that are truly relevant to life; third, use cases that are easy to use. Specifically, I am most optimistic about the Layer2, zkApplication, and fully on-chain game tracks.

免责声明：本文章仅代表作者个人观点，不代表本平台的立场和观点。本文章仅供信息分享，不构成对任何人的任何投资建议。用户与作者之间的任何争议，与本平台无关。如网页中刊载的文章或图片涉及侵权，请提供相关的权利证明和身份证明发送邮件到support@aicoin.com，本平台相关工作人员将会进行核查。