"I realize that I will never become a Memecoin trader."
Compiled & Edited by: Deep Tide TechFlow
Guest: Changpeng Zhao, Founder of Binance
Host: Farokh
Podcast Source: FAROKH RADIO
Original Title: CZ talks Life inside Prison, Trump Presidency, and state of Crypto!
Broadcast Date: May 6, 2025
Key Summary
In this exclusive interview, Farokh engages in an in-depth conversation with Changpeng Zhao, the founder and former CEO of Binance, known to many as "CZ." They discuss CZ's experiences in prison and the lessons he learned from it; his views on Trump's potential second presidential term; and his overall thoughts and feelings about the current cryptocurrency industry.
Highlights
The highest price for Bitcoin in this cycle could be between $500,000 and $1,000,000. By the end of the year, the total market capitalization of the cryptocurrency market is expected to be around $5 trillion.
Based on current trends, government purchases of Bitcoin will only increase, and I hope ordinary investors can buy Bitcoin before the government does.
I realize that I will never become a Memecoin trader. I am not a cryptocurrency trader either. I prefer to be a builder of platforms, creating tools for people to use rather than participating in trading myself.
Artificial Intelligence (AI) is a very important field, and I am particularly interested in the scientific domain. Additionally, there are more practical application areas, such as RWA (Real World Assets), and ETFs are also a very interesting direction.
An obvious issue in the industry right now is the overheating of "Memecoins," with too much money flooding into these Memecoins. In the short term, 99.999% of Memecoins will ultimately fail.
I believe the traditional media industry needs to change, or it will be eliminated by the times. Some reports often do not investigate the real issues but are driven by clear personal agendas targeting certain individuals. This approach not only fails to be profitable but also damages the company's reputation.
I realize that health is the most important thing, followed by family, and then work and other matters. In prison, you find that you don't really miss gourmet food; although you might occasionally miss a comfortable bed, what you miss the most is your family.
In the past, I was not sensitive to geopolitical issues, but now I realize that these political agendas can directly affect individuals and may even put you in trouble. So, I am now more cautious in my actions.
In the future, decentralized exchanges will be larger than centralized exchanges. We hope to invest heavily in these areas.
The existence of exchanges is not just for speculators; while they provide liquidity, it is more important to create a healthy ecosystem for long-term builders.
I work at least six days a week, sometimes even six and a half days. Even on weekends, I schedule meetings. Even when I am not working, my mind is always thinking about work-related matters.
Farokh: Hello everyone, I am Farokh, and welcome to Rock Radio. Today's guest is the legendary CZ, the founder of Binance. Thank you very much for taking the time to be interviewed. Do you like life here? I know you have close ties with the royal family here. What is it like to live in the desert?**
CZ: I live here, so I really like it. In fact, I could choose to settle anywhere in the world, but I ultimately chose here because I think this country is fantastic. Dubai is very bustling, but now the traffic is a bit congested, and there are many people, with rapid development. Abu Dhabi, on the other hand, feels quieter and more low-key, yet very powerful. I think this is one of the countries with the best leadership in the world.
Farokh: We have a lot to talk about today, such as your views on the cryptocurrency industry, Trump's presidency, government policies in Abu Dhabi, and so on. I initially wanted to discuss crypto legislation, but I thought that part would be too dry, so we will skip it today. We might talk about your prison experience, the comparison between centralized and decentralized exchanges, and even discuss Memecoins. If time allows, we can also talk about Binance. Of course, we will end with a prediction game segment; your predictions this year have been quite accurate, so let’s see what’s next.
Will Never Become a Memecoin Trader
Farokh: What have you gained from participating in the BNB Memecoin (meme coin) process?
CZ:
I think it’s actually quite interesting. Last year, I was busy with other matters in the U.S. and missed the entire Memecoin craze. By the time I returned to this field, everyone was talking about Memecoins, but in reality, many projects did not have real utility.
The process was quite interesting, but not easy. Initially, I thought I just needed to design an image and then release it, but later I found that there were many rules and etiquette in the community. For example, many people asked me for my pet's name and requested a photo. I never expected that a photo would spark so much PvP.
At first, I thought this was just a fun experiment, so I decided to release a teaser and then officially launch it 24 hours later to create some hype. I didn’t expect that when it was released, there would be thousands of "Broccoli," leading to debates among communities.
During this process, I felt that the culture and community atmosphere of Memecoins were very strong. At the same time, I also realized that being a primary trader is not easy. They spend their days in group chats, constantly monitoring which new coins will explode. After all this, I realize that I will never become a Memecoin trader. In fact, I am not a cryptocurrency trader either. I prefer to be a builder of platforms, creating tools for people to use rather than participating in trading myself. But regardless, we always pay attention to the needs of the community, and if the community is interested in Memecoins, we will do our best to support them.
At that time, I also thought, "Well, let's study the BNB chain and its ecosystem." I started to get more involved in this area because everyone wanted me to spend more time on it, as my involvement could indeed bring more attention to it. I also hope to provide some help to the BNBChain ecosystem. Although I cannot directly participate in the affairs of decentralized exchanges (DEX), I have no restrictions in areas like the decentralized BNB ecosystem. So I will invest my time in places where I can participate and push for ecosystem development as much as possible.
Optimistic About AI and Desci
Farokh: What part of the industry are you most interested in?
CZ:
Actually, behind the lively discussions on the surface of the industry, there are many noteworthy things happening quietly.
First, Artificial Intelligence (AI) is a very important field. The potential for the combination of AI and blockchain is enormous. Blockchain can directly leverage the capabilities of AI, and AI can also achieve more functions on the blockchain.
Second, I am particularly interested in the scientific field. I believe that, in the long run, the impact of science will be profound. Funding for scientific research has always been a challenge because it often takes a long time to see results. For investors seeking short-term returns, this is clearly not attractive enough. But I believe that scientific research, especially in the field of biotechnology, will become crucial in the future.
Through cryptocurrency and smart contracts, we can raise funds for scientific projects and disburse funds in phases based on research progress or timelines. This model can also incentivize millions of small research labs worldwide to participate. Combining big data and the capabilities of AI, I believe we will see significant breakthroughs in drug development and our understanding of human biology. These advances are not only possible but are actually being gradually realized.
Additionally, there are more practical application areas, such as RWA (Real World Assets). Some large traditional companies are exploring this field, such as BlackRock trying to conduct asset trading through blockchain technology.
Moreover, ETFs are a very interesting direction. They bring funds from traditional financial institutions into the cryptocurrency market. In the U.S., institutional investors account for most of the capital inflow, while the situation is slightly different in other regions. We can already see the impact of this trend, such as the recent rise in Bitcoin prices, which is closely related to the push for Bitcoin-based ETFs. So, I believe there are many exciting things happening in the industry.
Does Institutionalization of Cryptocurrency Threaten Its Spirit?
Farokh: Are you worried that the development of cryptocurrency has become so large that it is starting to involve the political realm? Now even ETFs (Exchange-Traded Funds) have emerged. From the price trends, the institutionalization of Bitcoin is clearly a positive factor, right? Our assets are rising. Although altcoins are not performing as well, at least Bitcoin's price is going up. Do you think this institutionalization poses a threat to the decentralized spirit advocated in the Bitcoin white paper?
CZ:
There will indeed be some impact. Everything has two sides; nothing is entirely good or entirely bad, so we need to find a balance within it.
As an early supporter of Bitcoin and a believer in decentralization, we would hope that the government intervenes as late as possible, especially regarding the purchase of Bitcoin. Many people hope that ordinary investors and users can own some Bitcoin before the government makes large-scale purchases. On this point, different people will have different views. Of course, from another perspective, government purchases of Bitcoin can positively drive prices and also strengthen people's confidence in Bitcoin. So this matter has both advantages and disadvantages.
Overall, in a decentralized world, we cannot control the actions of others, nor can we influence government decisions. The change in the U.S. attitude is a good example; 100 days ago, the U.S. government had a relatively cold attitude towards cryptocurrency, but now they seem to realize that purchasing Bitcoin is the right choice. This shift is good news for the entire industry, but I still hope ordinary investors can buy in before the government.
Farokh: So they still have time, right?
CZ:
Yes, we have been discussing cryptocurrency and working hard to promote its development; they actually have enough time to buy in. If someone doesn't want to buy, that's their choice.
Farokh: I heard you are also advising some government departments in Pakistan, and Bilawal Bhutto is your friend. Additionally, the sovereign wealth fund of Abu Dhabi recently invested in Binance. Based on current trends, government purchases of Bitcoin will only increase. This has already triggered a domino effect in the U.S., and I believe this is an important turning point that could even influence decisions in other countries.
99.99% of Memecoins Will Ultimately Fail
Farokh: In past cycles, you have had keen insights into some corrupt phenomena in the industry, and your intuition about this industry has always been accurate. So this time, what problems or potential "hidden dangers" do you think exist in the industry? What should we pay special attention to?
CZ:
An obvious problem in the industry right now is the overheating of "Memecoins," with too much money flooding into these Memecoins. In the short term, 99.999% of Memecoins will ultimately fail. According to statistics, there are currently about 13 million tokens tracked on CoinMarketCap, and you can imagine that the vast majority of them will not have a future. This is a high-risk area. Fortunately, most meme coin investors are already aware of this, as cases of failure are too common, and they have accepted this fact. However, at the same time, this phenomenon has also reduced people's attention to projects that have real utility.
Over the past four years, especially during the last administration, it has been very difficult to develop a compliant crypto project. The U.S. Securities and Exchange Commission (SEC) frequently sues project parties, claiming their tokens are securities, and so on. Fortunately, some of these lawsuits have recently been dismissed. So I believe that more developers will rejoin the industry in the future. Although the industry was once forced to develop in a somewhat unhealthy way, I am now more optimistic about the future because it is moving in the right direction.
Farokh: The SEC indeed puts a lot of pressure on people, for example, they might send you to prison. As founders in the industry, we are always concerned about tokenization. Even assets like NFTs were once labeled as securities in the Google Labs case, such as projects like CyberKong, and these charges were eventually dropped. Now, I feel that as a founder, I am more confident to take risks than before because I feel I can bear more risks. After all, we need to maintain a spirit of exploration and adventure in this industry, especially in cutting-edge fields like artificial intelligence.
CZ:
That's true. Many excellent American entrepreneurs have chosen to leave the U.S., which is detrimental to the U.S. economy and its leadership in the fields of cryptocurrency and artificial intelligence. However, I did not expect an election to bring about such a significant policy shift, which also illustrates the power of democracy from another perspective.
Traditional Media Needs to Change
Farokh: Recently, The Wall Street Journal and Bloomberg published some articles criticizing the crypto industry, sparking widespread discussion. What do you think of these reports?
On the way, I saw you tweeted about The Wall Street Journal and quoted Elon Musk's tweet discussing the issue of fake news. Trump often talks about similar topics. While these reports may not be entirely false, they do have a clear negative bias. This is also one of the reasons I founded Rug Radio. Later, we merged with Decrypt Media because I have always believed that Decrypt is one of the media outlets with the highest quality news in the crypto space. Our goal is to showcase the potential of crypto technology and emerging technologies as positively as possible. Of course, this does not mean we ignore negative news, but we also do not need to report only negative content. It seems that The Wall Street Journal and other mainstream media always try to report on us from a negative angle. Recently, they even personally attacked you, claiming that you "betrayed" other founders in the crypto industry to reduce your sentence while in prison. What do you think about that?
CZ:
Indeed, traditional media often selects a target figure and then focuses their attacks on them. They might choose Elon Musk, Trump, or me and others. Around these targets, they publish a large number of articles with negative bias.
But fortunately, this approach is no longer as effective as it used to be. Traditional governments may claim to support freedom of speech, but in reality, they indirectly influence reporting content by funding certain news organizations. This strategy may have worked in the past, but now it backfires.
For example, when certain political parties fail in elections, it indicates that people's trust in traditional media is weakening. Now, social media gives each of us a chance to voice our opinions. Through videos, meetings, and other forms, we can interact directly with the public and present our true selves, rather than letting certain articles define us. Although these negative reports are still bothersome, at least we have our own platforms to express our genuine views. For instance, my social media following may surpass that of most politicians, and Elon’s followers far exceed others. With the rise of social media, authentic voices are becoming increasingly important, so we are not as worried about it, but it still feels unpleasant.
Farokh: This is indeed a headache. Because these reports affect the external perception of us. People within our industry understand the actual situation, but those outside are more inclined to share articles from Bloomberg and The Wall Street Journal rather than reports from specialized crypto media like Decrypt.
CZ:
I once spoke with an executive from Bloomberg, who mentioned that they were even considering canceling their investigative news department because these reports often do not investigate real issues but are driven by clear personal agendas targeting certain individuals. This approach not only fails to be profitable but also damages the company's reputation. Bloomberg is essentially a technology company, not a media company. They primarily make money by selling terminal devices, and the media business is more of a burden for them.
I also heard that now over 30% of Bloomberg's news content is generated by AI, but these are mainly quick news items, such as market fluctuations, and do not involve investigative reporting. These quick news items receive more attention because they are more objective and data-driven. In contrast, reports with strong subjective bias are damaging the company's image. So, I believe the media industry needs to change, or they will be eliminated by the times.
Farokh: We are also trying to change. For example, we are developing prediction markets through resources like Crypmedia and Rug Radio to capture market sentiment in real-time. Just like Polymarket's performance during Trump's election, there is often a significant difference between media reports and the actual investment behavior of the public.
Difficult Moments in Prison and Change
Farokh: Did your experience in prison have a profound impact on your lifestyle and work style?
CZ:
Of course. Such experiences always make you rethink your priorities in life. First of all, I realize that health is the most important thing, followed by family, and then work and other matters.
In prison, you find that you don't really miss gourmet food; although you might occasionally miss a comfortable bed, what you miss the most is your family. You don't miss money, nor do you particularly miss work, even though resigning as CEO of Binance was indeed a bit emotional for me.
I have always been a builder, so I cannot stop moving forward. Fortunately, although I am no longer young, I am not too old either, and I still have the energy to do some things. Now I focus my energy on helping funds, providing advice to other entrepreneurs, and communicating and learning with them. At the same time, I am also building an educational platform. Although I am still very busy, I believe that no matter where you are, you can have a positive impact in different ways.
Additionally, this experience has made me more cautious. In the past, I was not sensitive to geopolitical issues, but now I realize that these political agendas can directly affect individuals and may even put you in trouble. So, I am now more careful in my actions.
After getting out of prison, I spent some time adapting to life. In the first few months, I was rarely active on social media and did not attend any events. After a period of adjustment, I slowly returned to a normal state.
Farokh: Did you make friends while you were inside?
CZ:
I did keep in touch with a few friends. You can meet good people anywhere. Of course, there are also some who have been overly punished; they may have made some mistakes, but the punishment is too severe. I still keep in touch with some friends in prison. Their situation is very difficult, and they have almost no lawyers to help them, especially since the fees for outside lawyers are very high. They also find it hard to get information because there is no internet in prison, and communication can only be done through a very outdated system, which even does not allow sending pictures or links.
Farokh: So could you know the price of Bitcoin while in prison?
CZ:
Not at all. However, some people would message me to ask how I was doing and casually inquire about Bitcoin and Binance Coin (BNB). There were a few TVs in prison, but most of them played sitcoms and sports programs. I don’t watch sports and don’t watch TV. However, a few inmates were interested in cryptocurrency, so they specifically set up a financial channel. I saw some news in prison, such as the assassination of a president and the 34 criminal charges Trump faced.
One of the charges was that he brought classified documents into the bathroom, and I thought that was really absurd. If one of my employees did that, I might even give him a bonus, as it shows he is working hard. Looking back at these things, although there was a lot of pressure at the time, it seems a bit ridiculous now.
Just five days before I went to prison, Elizabeth Warren publicly announced a "war" on cryptocurrency. If I hadn’t been under so much pressure at that time, I might have found these things quite funny. But looking back now, it does seem a bit absurd.
Farokh: Can you share some of the difficult moments you experienced in prison, such as the living conditions, the feeling of sharing a cell with a murderer, and the psychological changes you faced when confronted with fear?
CZ:
Prison life is really very tough. Although I can laugh about it now in hindsight, the feelings at that time were completely different. This is not an experience to joke about, and it is definitely not fun. I wouldn’t wish this on anyone. Although I have always thought of myself as someone who can handle pressure well and is relatively calm, it was still very hard in that environment. I experienced body searches, being locked in a cell, and the first time sharing a cell with a double murderer.
In prison, the staff does not care who you are; to them, you are just another inmate. I did not receive any special treatment. Someone told me that I might be monitored in prison, which could be the only difference. But the other inmates and guards did not know my identity; they were just doing their jobs.
My cellmate was a person sentenced to 30 years for double murder. He was transferred to a low-security prison after serving 12 years for good behavior, which was the lowest level he could go to. In prison, inmates usually group by race. I shared a cell with a Native American, and we got along quite well. However, even so, the moment I entered prison, I felt very scared. Upon entering, I had to go through a series of checks, including taking photos, answering questions, and being searched. Then, I was taken to the housing unit. When I first walked into the housing unit, I saw a three-story building with two rows of cells facing each other, housing 240 inmates. Everyone was shouting loudly, and many had tattoos, looking very fierce. At that moment, I thought to myself, this place is not fun.
The guard told me my cell was on the fifth floor. I walked over to try to open the door, only to find it locked. Later, a big guy came over and told me that the door needed to be opened by a guard. Everyone was watching me, the new inmate, and that feeling was very stressful.
Interestingly, although these inmates looked fierce, they were actually very polite and friendly. I did not have any conflicts with inmates or guards in prison. However, the hardest part was the psychological pressure. I was always worried that they might find some random reason to make me stay a few more months or even add more charges. This kind of thing has happened to many inmates, just like the "California Hotel," where you can check in but never check out.
If someone had clearly told me, "You only need to stay for four months," I would have thought, "Okay, no problem, I can get through this." But in prison, the uncertainty of many things made me very anxious. Even when I was later sent to a Halfway House, in the last month, I was arrested by immigration authorities because my visa had expired. Although we had applied for a visa extension, it was denied, and as a result, I was forced to stay in the U.S. longer.
After spending a few days in the detention center, my lawyer successfully revoked the detention order, but they did not let me return to the Halfway House. I have detailed these experiences in my book.
About SBF (Sam Bankman-Fried)
Farokh: What do you think of SBF (Sam Bankman-Fried) now? He is still serving his sentence. After your own prison experience, do you have more understanding or sympathy for him?
CZ:
Fair or not, I don't want to comment too much. I wouldn't wish prison life on anyone; it is definitely not an easy experience. But I also believe that any behavior involving fraud, lying, and deception must be stopped. Such behavior should not exist. However, the prison sentences in the U.S. are indeed long, but there are mechanisms for sentence reduction, such as reducing the sentence by 10 days for every 30 days of good behavior, so most people actually serve about two-thirds of their sentence. Even so, I still have sympathy for everyone in prison because that experience is really hard to endure.
In prison, I saw many people sentenced to 10 years, and their lives were almost completely predetermined. They no longer considered self-reform. Although most people are aware of what they did wrong, many have lost the opportunity to change due to excessive punishment. They just go through the motions of life. Without real corrective measures, the meaning of imprisonment is diminished.
Moreover, this excessive punishment also wastes a lot of taxpayers' money. I am not sure what the most effective correctional method is, but if we really want people to change, we should let them learn from their mistakes and start over. So, I do not want to express a clear opinion on the length of sentences or whether they are fair.
As long as we continue to push the industry forward, that is what matters most. But it is undeniable that the SBF incident has had a very negative impact on the entire crypto industry, casting a shadow over our entire field.
Trump and $TRUMP
Farokh: You have mentioned Donald Trump several times. Clearly, you witnessed his rise while in prison; does that make you feel more optimistic about your sentence? After all, you mentioned concerns about long sentences.
CZ:
Yes. At that time, he was facing 34 charges, and both the judge and jury found them valid, which I found very unbelievable. Later, he announced his candidacy for president, and I thought, this might be a good thing. Then, he began to publicly support cryptocurrency, and it was clear that his support was genuine, not just talk.
So I think this is a positive signal for the crypto industry and brings some hope to those who may be unfairly accused. While following these news stories in prison, I felt lucky for our industry because the sitting U.S. president was supportive of cryptocurrency; he is indeed a very smart person.
Farokh: I know many founders in the crypto industry seek support through lobbying activities, such as gaining access through donations. I remember at a digital summit, I got a pass to the White House to report on the crypto industry. I also saw many founders of centralized exchanges there. So I wonder if you have had similar access?
CZ:
No. As a foreign company and foreign citizen, we cannot donate to any political activities. This is mandated by law, and I am very cautious about it; I absolutely will not get involved in anything related to elections.
I am still a major shareholder of Binance. So neither the company nor I personally will participate in any election-related activities. I am very careful to avoid touching these sensitive areas. As for what we have done since my release, we have not launched any new activities in the U.S. Binance U.S. is still operating normally, but there are no other actions. There were some news reports claiming that I tried to exchange shares of Binance U.S. for a pardon, which is completely false. I have never discussed the equity issue of Binance U.S. with anyone, and its equity structure has not changed. So, these reports are purely fictional.
Farokh: What is the current progress on your application for a presidential pardon?
CZ:
We hope to convey the truth through some appropriate news reports, such as contacting professionals like Ryan to ensure the information is accurate. If I can obtain a pardon, I believe it would be a positive signal for the entire industry. However, for now, we can only wait and see.
Farokh: Arthur has successfully obtained a pardon. I certainly hope you can succeed in your application. I think it is entirely possible, and I know you are qualified to apply.
CZ:
Yes, I believe the team will support me, and I am very grateful for that. After all, everyone is working hard for the development of the industry.
Farokh: Are you clear about the legal procedures for the application?
CZ:
Yes, I have entrusted a lawyer to handle this matter. In fact, we decided to formally submit the application only after Bloomberg published related reports. At that time, I thought, since the reports have come out, we might as well take advantage of it. Arthur's pardon application was also quickly approved. So we submitted the application about two weeks ago, and now we can only wait for the result.
Farokh: How do you evaluate President Trump's current performance? Do you think the trade war between the U.S. and China is likely to end?
CZ:
I think President Trump's performance is quite good; he understands business operations very well. Although many people are concerned about tariffs and other policies, I see this more as a negotiation strategy rather than traditional geopolitical maneuvering. In business negotiations, it is common to start with a high price and then gradually make concessions through negotiation to find a balance that both sides can accept. While this approach has a significant short-term impact on the industry and economy, it is refreshing in some ways. President Trump is very good at making deals, and I believe he will ultimately facilitate an agreement.
Farokh: Do you think the trade war between the U.S. and China will end sooner?
CZ:
I think it is possible. The negotiators from China are very smart; they know their goals and strategies. However, I feel that China may not fully agree with President Trump's negotiation style. Asian culture often places great importance on "face," and if overly tough demands are made publicly, it may provoke resentment.
This indeed reflects cultural differences. In the U.S., especially under President Trump's leadership, he often live-streams meetings via social media, which is not common among other political leaders. This style is very unique.
However, I believe both sides have excellent advisory teams that have a deep understanding of each other's cultural differences. So I am quite confident about the prospects of the negotiations. At least now both sides are sitting down to talk rather than completely cutting off contact as before. Previously, it was more of a battle of soft power, but now both sides are starting to communicate directly, which makes me optimistic about the future.
Farokh: What are your thoughts on TRUMP C oin?
CZ:
I don't know much about it because the opinions I have heard are very inconsistent. Some people say it is closely related to Trump, while others say it is completely unrelated. I have not done in-depth research on it myself.
Farokh: But it does have some connection to Trump, right? For example, they plan to hold a dinner on May 22, inviting the top 20 holders to attend.
CZ:
There is indeed some connection, but I am not one of the top 25 holders of TRUMP Coin.
Farokh: Is it because of media coverage that you chose to distance yourself from it?
CZ:
I try to avoid getting involved with these matters. The media attention and potential negative coverage make me feel that participating would not be wise. So I decided not to buy TRUMP Coin and do not want to have any connection with it.
Farokh: Do you think the leadership in the UAE is learning from Trump's approach? How do you evaluate their foresight?
CZ:
The leadership in the UAE is very forward-thinking. They are not only smart but also have vision and strategic insight, handling issues very flexibly. As early as the rise of blockchain technology, they realized that oil resources are not sustainable and that they must expand into other economic areas. In their diversification efforts, they have made significant investments in blockchain and artificial intelligence. These are key technologies for the future, and the leadership in the UAE has a profound understanding of this.
Moreover, the relationship between the UAE and the U.S. is very harmonious. Although I am not clear on the specific details, I have heard that they have engaged in considerable cooperation in areas like artificial intelligence and blockchain. This international cooperation further reflects the openness and foresight of the UAE.
I believe leadership is very important; a good leader can lead a country to great development. I think that regardless of the system used, whether it is democracy, monarchy, etc., many people may be constrained by the system, but what truly matters is the leader. In any system, even in a democratic system, there can be bad leaders. Where there is valuable design and strong leadership, business can thrive. They will strive to find policies without taxes, reasonable regulatory frameworks, etc. I think we see this here, and we see it in the United States as well.
Comparison of DEX and CEX
Farokh: Do you think the competitive landscape between centralized exchanges (CEX) and decentralized exchanges (DEX) has changed?
CZ:
There has indeed been a change. Many people see CEX and DEX as opposing poles, but I think this view is not accurate. Both are tools for users to access the blockchain. Without the blockchain, CEX cannot exist. They are just different ways to help users enter the decentralized world. For ordinary users, logging in with an email and password is obviously much easier than managing complex private keys.
CEX and DEX are actually different paths to the same goal. As solution providers in the industry, our task is to offer users diverse choices rather than relying solely on one model. CEX is not the endpoint; it is a bridge to help users access the blockchain.
We have invested in multiple areas, including CEX, DEX, perpetual contracts, and blockchain development. I believe the DEX and perpetual contract markets have huge potential; they are still in the early stages, and there is much to explore and improve.
However, a completely transparent trading model may not be suitable for all situations. For example, you might see a large holder placing a $300 million short position, but in reality, true institutional investors do not want their trades to be public. Therefore, the trading methods of large institutions often differ from those of ordinary users.
Yes, that is indeed the case. Traditionally, decentralized trading pools are usually much larger than what we refer to as order books. So I think there is a lot of room for growth, but I do believe the future is decentralized. I have said many times that in the future, decentralized exchanges will be larger than centralized exchanges, and we hope to invest heavily in these areas.
Farokh: Have you started investing?
CZ:
We have invested in several DEX and perpetual contract projects. However, I do not directly manage these projects; we usually just hold a small stake.
Farokh: Recently, many people believe that if a coin is listed on a centralized exchange, it is a signal that it has peaked. It now seems that since it is listed on a centralized exchange, it will lose its popularity on decentralized exchanges; I feel this view has changed.
CZ:
There has indeed been some change, but this is mainly the perspective of short-term speculators. They see listing on CEX as the last opportunity, but for true builders, listing is just a starting point, not an endpoint.
The existence of exchanges is not just for speculators; while they provide liquidity, more importantly, they create a healthy ecosystem for long-term builders.
Crypto Exchange Executives Group Chat Incident
Farokh: Do you still communicate with executives from other exchanges? Previously, The New York Times reported that you had some disputes with SBF in an executive group chat, and later we learned about what happened next. Can you share some details about that group chat? Do you still communicate frequently?
CZ:
I occasionally chat with them, but not frequently. First, we are all very busy; second, there is a certain competitive relationship between exchanges. That group chat had about 10 exchange founders, and it did exist. In fact, this group chat was created during the Luna collapse. At that time, they were planning to launch Luna 2, and one of the members was from FTX, who had previously worked at Bitfinex and OKX and was very familiar with the industry.
The original intention of the group chat was to coordinate the naming of Luna and Luna 2. If each exchange used its own naming convention, it could confuse users. For example, if one exchange called it Luna 2 and another called it Luna, but they were actually the same token, it would confuse users. So we created this group chat to unify the naming, and the group chat was called "Exchange Coordination."
This group chat was created by one person who invited some people to join. Later, I was asked many questions by regulators and the Department of Justice because of this group chat. They suspected we were manipulating the market, but in reality, we were just temporarily collaborating among peers. In some special situations, such as when an exchange suffers a hack, we coordinate in the group to track the flow of funds and see if we can freeze the relevant addresses. In such cases, exchanges cooperate.
However, this group chat is mainly used by the founders; we do not personally track blockchain transactions; that is the work of other teams. Later, during the FTX collapse, there were rumors that they were trying to de-peg USDT. Paolo (the founder of Tether) sent a message in the group asking to stop this behavior, and I expressed my support and promised to help protect the industry from further damage. Although this message attracted a lot of attention, the actual situation was not problematic.
I only met Paolo for the first time recently; before that, we only communicated online. He is a great person. People in our industry know each other; for example, once when bad funds flowed through Binance, we needed to freeze USDT. I contacted Paolo, and he responded quickly and arranged for his team to handle it. Where cooperation is needed, we always manage to work well together.
Moreover, there is no direct competition between Tether and us. We usually meet at industry conferences; this was my first time communicating face-to-face with Paolo and some others. Although we have worked in this industry for 11 years, most of our previous interactions were online.
Considering a Return?
Farokh: This reminds me of my experience with friends. We worked in the cryptocurrency field for a year and a half without meeting until later when we truly got to know each other. I really appreciate Paolo's work at Tether; they have achieved a lot in the U.S. recently. So, if given the opportunity to return to Binance, would you lead the company again?
CZ:
I think the possibility is slim. I believe that experience is in the past. Being "forced to retire" is actually a kind of luck. If I had retired voluntarily, some might think, "Is he unable to continue?"
Farokh: I heard you are a workaholic?
CZ:
That is indeed the case. I work at least six days a week, sometimes even six and a half days. Even on weekends, I schedule meetings. Even when I am not working, my mind is always thinking about work-related matters. That is probably just my way of thinking. Of course, I also try some extracurricular activities; for example, I have recently been learning kite surfing—although I can jump up, my landing technique is still not very good. But by most people's standards, I am indeed a workaholic. So, I do not think I would return to Binance as CEO. The company has operated very well without my direct involvement over the past year and a half. I am still a shareholder of the company, so I will benefit from it. Moreover, Binance has a very strong team, and our goal is to continue to nurture and grow this team, but I do not plan to take the helm of Binance again.
Farokh: That sounds interesting. So would you consider starting or joining other crypto projects? If so, what kind of projects would you choose?
CZ:
I prefer to play the role of a mentor, coach, or supporter, like a coach cheering for new entrepreneurs from the sidelines. I do not plan to lead a new project again. Although I am still working hard now, my pace of work has become much more relaxed compared to when I was leading Binance. I feel there is no need for me to prove anything again by taking on that kind of high-intensity responsibility and pressure. As an entrepreneur, I have already achieved enough, and I am very satisfied with my current state.
Quickfire Questions:
Farokh: Finally, let's play a little game, five quickfire questions. I previously mentioned that we created a prediction market platform called Myriad Markets, which is very fun and full of gamified design. Next, I will ask you a few questions, and you just need to give a number or a prediction.
What do you think the total market capitalization of the cryptocurrency market will be by the end of the year?
CZ:
About $5 trillion.
Farokh: What will be the highest price of Bitcoin in this cycle?
CZ:
I guess it could be between $500,000 and $1 million.
Farokh: Do you think Trump will surpass Doge in this cycle?
CZ:
It's hard to say; it depends on many factors.
Farokh: Will Fartcoin rise to $10? Its current price is $1.20.
CZ:
I think that is unlikely.
Farokh: Last question, will you get another dog?
CZ:
Not in the short term. Having a dog requires a lot of energy.
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