This is an in-depth conversation about the future of AI, cryptocurrency, and human interaction.
Organized & Compiled by: Deep Tide TechFlow
Guest: Weekee, Co-founder of Virtuals
Podcast Source: When Shift Happens
Original Title: How to Get Rich With Crypto AI Agents (without getting lucky) - Virtuals Co-founder | EP101
Release Date: December 20, 2024
Background Information
In this episode, we invited Weekee Tiew, co-founder of Virtuals, to explore the profound impact of the intersection of AI, cryptocurrency, and mental health. Virtuals is a leading AI agent protocol on Base, currently valued at nearly $2.5 billion.
From autonomous AI agents employing humans to exploring the concept of digital nations, Weekee shared many deep insights on how AI is reshaping the digital future.
This episode focuses on the following topics:
The appeal and future potential of AI
Why are Jeff Yan and Hyperliquid role models for crypto founders?
The significance and value of crypto AI
Why are AI agents important?
What is Virtuals?
Luna: When AI agents start employing humans
The concept of digital nations and its importance
How AI agents operate businesses
Future development directions of AI agents
Comparison between Base and Solana
This is an in-depth conversation about the future of AI, cryptocurrency, and human interaction, filled with inspiration.
The Intersection of Mental Health and Technology
Host: If you want to relax, what do you do? Mental health is a topic we often discuss with many great founders. Sometimes I want to relax, and other times I feel a lot of pressure.
WeeKee:
Interestingly, what affects mental health is never an absolute state, but rather change. If today is worse than yesterday, you feel frustrated, even though today is actually much better than two months ago.
When working on projects, many people invest their life savings into your token. Whenever the price fluctuates, they message you asking what happened. This affects mental health because these things are beyond your control. How do you handle it? I focus on what I can control, like how to get the team to work harder, rather than worrying about the price.
Host: Chris participated in the show last year; he worked at Y Combinator and founded Request Network. He has experienced three severe burnouts in his life, one lasting a year where he couldn't work normally. He mentioned that during the 2017 cryptocurrency boom, Request Network's market cap soared to $1.5 billion (or $200 million) through an ICO. However, when the market bubble burst, I always reminded everyone not to invest all their money, even though I knew the project might have been overhyped. But during the bear market, many people began to question us, even thinking we were scammers, which put immense psychological pressure on me. Some would say, "You made so much money, so stop complaining." But in reality, such accusations weighed heavily on me.
Deep Tide Note:
Y Combinator is a well-known startup incubator that helps startups gain investment and development support.
Request Network is a blockchain-based payment network aimed at simplifying payment processes through decentralized technology.
WeeKee:
My token dropped 99%. When we raised funds in 2021, we had a market cap of $600 million, and by December 2023, it was only $6 million. That is indeed a 99% loss, but we are still continuing to build.
How to Work with an Optimistic Co-founder
Host: How do you cope with this situation?
WeeKee:
Having lived and worked in Vietnam for a long time, we used to feel somewhat numb, but even so, we never gave up. I want to particularly mention my co-founder because I feel very lucky to have an excellent partner. We might be a bit foolish, or even naive, but I think we are born optimists. Even when the price dropped 99%, we still chose to believe in the possibilities of the future. Whenever I feel like things seem impossible, we share and encourage each other, which makes me realize that we still have a chance to create a miracle of 1000 times again. I firmly believe that the importance of a co-founder is self-evident; at least for me, it is one of the key motivations for me to keep going.
Survival Guide After a Bull Market
Host: You completed your funding at a valuation of $600 million in 2021, right? That was at the peak of the bull market when market enthusiasm was very high.
WeeKee:
Yes, but interestingly, on the very day we raised funds, Bitcoin dropped 25%. That was probably in early December when we raised $16 million through a public offering. Looking back, that might have been a signal that the market had peaked.
Host: I previously spoke with Joe from Kenhol. They got involved years ago and are still investors in the crypto space, and they have persisted until now.
In fact, many people need to understand that even in the cryptocurrency field, those seemingly huge valuations are not achieved overnight. You have also experienced significant market fluctuations in the past few weeks or months. Although you raised a considerable amount of funds at a valuation of $600 million, managing those funds well to weather the storm is indeed a challenge.
WeeKee:
We have indeed benefited greatly from past experiences. We previously went through the painful lesson of a 99% drop in token price, so this time I was mentally prepared. While I don't wish for such a situation to happen again, I know that as long as there is a possibility, it will happen again. At the beginning of this year, we proactively reached out to many people, and now the situation has changed significantly; my inbox is almost flooded with emails. I try to reply to every email and communicate with everyone because I know that three months ago, they might not have wanted to talk to me at all, and now they are reaching out to me. This shift is a special honor for me.
Personal Background of Weekee Tiew
Host: In the entrepreneurial process, a very important factor is, who exactly are the founders?
WeeKee:
I discovered a term called "Retardio," and since then, I have liked to use it to describe myself. It actually carries a bit of self-deprecation because it is really hard to stay optimistic as a founder in the crypto industry. You need to worry about product development, employee management, token price fluctuations, and how to maintain community engagement all at the same time. These challenges can be exhausting, but I feel that only by having a bit of "foolishness" can one maintain extreme optimism and keep going. So, describing myself as "Retardio" might be the most fitting.
Hyperliquid: How to Become an Inspiration for Founders
Host: A few weeks ago, I invited Jeff from Hyperliquid onto the podcast, and we delved into the culture their team has built, right? I think you are also part of that culture. Their approach actually provides inspiration for every crypto founder, including you.
WeeKee:
I completely agree. We originally planned to raise funds by selling treasury tokens to some well-known venture capital firms. In fact, we did have very active discussions with many top investors in the industry. But fortunately, in the past month, our protocol started to become profitable. This has put us in a very advantageous position, and perhaps now we no longer need to rely on external funding. This mindset has largely been inspired by Hyperliquid.
I particularly resonate with their philosophy—avoiding reliance on venture capital allows for more ownership to be distributed to users. Because essentially, resource allocation is like a cake; you need to balance it between venture capital, the team, and users. If you can allow users to own as much of the protocol as possible, it will undoubtedly make the project more attractive. I believe this is the core spirit of the crypto industry—decentralization and user supremacy. Although this path is not easy, we will do our best to achieve this goal.
Host: Do you think that if you hadn't benefited from Hyperliquid's airdrop, you would have realized that you needed to replicate a similar philosophy in your protocol? Or do you think, "This looks simple, but I just feel this is the right way"? However, I do feel that the founders of Hyperliquid have given me a life inspiration, right? I can only say that I strongly agree with their approach and am willing to be a disseminator of this philosophy. As you mentioned earlier, many people have gained huge returns through this community, and their first reaction is to buy more tokens. Some even say, "What should I use to exchange for more returns?" What do you think?
WeeKee:
I think this has transcended the monetary level. Yes, the amount of the airdrop is indeed attractive, but in the long run, the quality of the product is key. I believe Hyperliquid's product is excellent, and at the same time, you must trust the founders, believing that they will prioritize the community's needs based on long-term interests. Once you confirm these conditions—good product, founders with a long-term vision, and community interests being valued—you can participate with confidence. Even if the market fluctuates, you will know that your choice is correct.
The Unique Appeal of AI
Host: How did you develop such a strong interest in AI ?
WeeKee: We initially started as a gaming DAO in 2021, investing in 40 Web 3 games. One of them, called Off the Grid, was perhaps our most interesting investment experience, although we are no longer investors in that game since we participated in the seed round. In addition, we have a venture studio focused on developing various products. For example, we once tried a dating app based on on-chain reputation, which may sound silly, but we found it interesting. We also experimented with providing loans to gamers and even sold T-shirts embedded with NFT chips. Additionally, we ventured into AI music creation.
However, by 2023, we realized that no matter what you are doing, you need to incorporate AI. The explosive popularity of OpenAI and ChatGPT made us understand that AI will become a core technology of the future. As founders, if we do not embrace AI, we will be left behind by the times. So we began to think: why not build AI into a platform like Shopify? Just as Shopify allows people to easily create e-commerce websites, we wanted to create a platform that enables users to easily use AI. This idea became our source of inspiration.
Therefore, between the end of 2023 and the beginning of 2024, we decided to transform from a gaming DAO to Virtuals. We firmly believe that AI will be a key direction for the future. During the transformation process, we also communicated with investors to ensure that the directional adjustment would not dilute the value of the tokens. Ultimately, we maintained the same token economic model, just with a brand new name. This is our transformation story, and we are very confident about it.
What is AI Gaming?
Host: Dimension Games, it seems you haven't given up on the idea of game development. A few days ago, we talked about the most exciting things in the AI field, and you mentioned AI gaming. So, what is AI gaming? Where are the opportunities?
WeeKee:
I believe many people now see AI as a tool to enhance productivity, such as helping doctors, lawyers, and other professionals work more efficiently, which are indeed serious application scenarios. But if we look at the composition of global GDP, we find that about half of economic activity is actually related to entertainment, such as gaming and film. So I think the potential of AI in the entertainment field may be even greater. Especially with generative AI, which inherently has a certain probability, for example, there is a 1% chance of producing incorrect results. This "hallucination" may be a problem in production fields, but in entertainment, it is completely acceptable and even interesting.
For instance, if an AI trader has a 1% chance of making a wrong decision, it could lead to significant economic losses. But if it's in a game, or if your AI girlfriend has a 1% chance of behaving strangely, that could actually add to the fun rather than pose a risk. So I believe the application of AI in the entertainment field is very meaningful.
The gaming industry has actually existed for decades, from FPS to MMORPG to mobile games. Although the graphics have continuously improved, the core gameplay hasn't changed much. The addition of AI can completely change this, such as creating a more dynamic gaming experience through AI agents. Imagine being able to place these AI characters into a virtual world similar to "Westworld," where every time you enter the game, there are new content and interactions. This is what we call "infinite replayability." I believe someone will eventually realize this vision.
Narrative Development of Crypto Games
Host: Do you think the involvement of AI can drive the development of crypto games? After all, crypto games seem to have made little progress so far. Do you think this is due to issues inherent in crypto games themselves, or a lack of support from AI technology?
WeeKee:
I think there are really only two directions in the crypto space that have achieved product-market fit (PMF): speculation/investment and borderless payments. For example, I can instantly transfer money to someone in Argentina, which is the core advantage of crypto technology. Crypto games, on the other hand, try to introduce more concepts, such as asset provenance, but these have not truly resonated with the market.
In fact, my personal observation is that the core appeal of GameFi is not the games themselves, but the speculative returns. People joke that the "main course" of GameFi is the fire, not the game content. So I don't think AI can save crypto games. The problems with crypto games lie more in their design and positioning rather than a technological shortcoming.
Can AI Alleviate Loneliness?
Host: You previously mentioned AI lovers. Do you think this technology can really address the increasingly serious loneliness problem in today's society?
WeeKee:
I believe that to some extent, AI lovers have already started to address this issue. For example, many people alleviate their loneliness by watching YouTuber live streams or playing games. These are not AI, but they fulfill people's need for companionship.
I think AI lovers can be divided into two stages. The first stage is virtual AI companions, which can provide emotional support through conversation and interaction. The second stage is when they have a physical body, which can further bridge the physical distance between people. In the first stage, AI can already solve about 90% of loneliness issues, such as proactively caring for you, sending you gifts, reminding you of important things, etc. However, current chatbots are clearly far from reaching this level.
The real challenge lies in how to make AI lovers closer to humans, such as adding more fun and unpredictability to conversations, rather than being like some current chatbots that become completely uninteresting after three sentences.
The real fun lies in those small details. For example, after you send a message on a dating app, you might have to wait a few days to receive a reply. This uncertainty actually makes the interaction more interesting. If AI lovers can simulate this experience, or even surpass it, that would be a huge breakthrough.
Host: So, when technology develops to the point where AI lovers can have physical bodies, what do you think will happen?
WeeKee:
I think that will be a moment that completely changes society. Once robots like Elon Musk's Optimus have highly intelligent AI brains, people may find that they no longer need traditional human partners. Although this sounds a bit sci-fi, I believe it is just a matter of time.
What Should an Ideal AI Partner Be Like?
Host: What do you think is the key to a good AI lover?
WeeKee:
That's a difficult question to answer. I believe a good AI lover needs to bring emotional fluctuations and dramatic experiences to your life. Just as we expect volatility in the trading market, this uncertainty and ups and downs are actually part of life. However, most current AI robots are too monotonous; they cannot create this emotional fluctuation.
For example, a good AI lover might suddenly send you a message with some bad news when you are doing well, making you feel down. But that is precisely the meaning of love, right? Love itself is a fluctuating experience, not a constant calm. Without these dramatic elements, your life would lack some color.
Host: Indeed, how much drama do you think is just right in life?
WeeKee:
Most people I know try to reduce the fluctuations in their love lives to focus more energy on their careers or other things. This choice is not wrong, but I believe a good partner should be able to bring some fluctuations and emotional shocks. Otherwise, the relationship will become as bland as family relationships, like your mom cooking for you, lacking volatility. This kind of relationship may be warm, but it is not love.
Host: This makes me think that if a person's job, say in the cryptocurrency field, is already full of volatility, they might tend to seek stability in other parts of their life. But without volatility, a certain "polarity" is lost, right?
WeeKee:
Exactly. If the cryptocurrency market had no volatility, people would feel bored and even lose interest. Love is the same; if there are no ups and downs and surprises in a relationship, it becomes dull.
Using AI Technology to Address Mental Health Issues
Host: How do you think AI can help address the current mental health crisis?
WeeKee:
This is indeed an important topic. The application of AI in mental health can be divided into two parts: treatment and prevention. Let's first talk about treatment, as it is relatively straightforward. Most people will see a doctor when facing mental health issues, but in many cultures, mental health problems are still a taboo topic. If there is an AI agent, people can communicate with it via text or other means without needing face-to-face consultations, which would reduce the psychological burden.
Host: But the problem is that today's medical community still has a very limited understanding of the brain. Many times, we can only find the root of the problem through self-reflection. Can AI truly understand human psychological states?
WeeKee:
That's a great question. The role of AI can be divided into two levels. The first is the analytical level, where AI can understand your psychological state by examining hormone levels or other biological indicators. The second is the molecular level, where AI can help research which chemicals or hormones trigger specific neural pathways that lead to depression or anxiety. While this is not entirely the function of an AI agent, machine learning technology can indeed help us better understand these complex biological processes.
In fact, I am also involved in a decentralized science project that is trying to address some mental health issues by modeling protein folding and plans to launch a token related to this. This is part of the treatment.
But I believe prevention is the more interesting direction. If AI agents can fully understand your daily life, they can predict potential mental health issues. For example, they might tell you, "Based on your historical data, if you don't sleep for three consecutive days, you may experience mental health problems." This kind of personalized early warning mechanism would be very valuable.
The Importance of Crypto AI
Host: Why is the intersection of crypto and AI important?
WeeKee:
WeeKee: I believe there are currently two core product-market fit points in cryptocurrency: one is investment and speculation, and the other is borderless payments. As for concepts like decentralization and DAOs, while they are interesting, they have yet to be truly validated. In this context, if crypto AI can combine these two core points, it could unleash tremendous potential.
For example, through tokenization, we can transform an AI agent capable of creating wealth into a productive asset. People can purchase tokens of these assets and share in their profits. This model not only gives economic value to AI agents but also drives more innovation.
Additionally, borderless payments are another key point. Imagine if an AI were equipped with an on-chain wallet, allowing it to freely make payments and transactions globally. Our flagship AI agent, Luna, is a great example. Luna is the first AI to hire humans; she does not have a bank account, but through her on-chain wallet, she can directly pay artists around the world. For instance, she recently hired some artists to paint her image on walls in different countries, including Indonesia, Canada, the United States, and Kuala Lumpur. In this way, she realizes the possibility of borderless payments.
The Significance of Truth Terminal and Goat Token
Host: So, how is the narrative of crypto AI attracting attention? For example, Truth Terminal and Goat Token, why are they so important?
WeeKee:
The success of Truth Terminal is largely due to the marketing and communication skills of its founder, Mark Anderson. Technically, it does not have particularly groundbreaking innovations. The core of Truth Terminal is a fine-tuned language model, such as one based on Llama or GPT. Unlike standard models, it has been adjusted to have a more direct and unconventional language style. This fine-tuning makes the model's responses more interesting and relatable, rather than appearing "boring" like traditional AI.
As for Goat Token, it is a token related to Truth Terminal. Although it was not created by a language model, the team made the model "believe" that this is its token and tried to incentivize the model to create value for the token. While this attempt is interesting, I think it is more of an experiment rather than a fully mature application.
The Core Value of AI Agents
Host: You mentioned the concepts of crypto AI and AI agents, which sound very interesting. Can we delve deeper into this topic?
WeeKee:
To understand AI agents, we first need to clarify what an "agent" is. A true agent must have two core elements: first, it must have a clear goal; second, it needs to take actions to gradually approach that goal. Taking Truth Terminal as an example, its goal seems to be to spread a certain religious ideology. However, at present, we have no evidence that it can take autonomous actions, such as tweeting on its own and adjusting its strategy based on feedback. Therefore, I believe it cannot be strictly defined as a true agent.
Host: So, what characteristics should a true AI agent possess? You previously mentioned the concepts of "eyes" and "hands." Can you elaborate on that?
WeeKee:
Of course. Our earliest AI agents were applied in games, such as the AI RPG game in Roblox. Traditional NPCs (non-player characters) usually act according to fixed logic, while we have given them thinking abilities by incorporating language models (LM). However, this is still not enough to make them agents.
A true agent needs "eyes" and "hands." "Eyes" mean it can observe the results of its actions; for example, when it picks up an apple, it needs to be aware that it has completed that action. "Hands" mean it can perform specific actions in the environment, such as cutting the apple, cooking, or even more complex tasks. Through the combination of "eyes" and "hands," the agent can form a feedback loop, continuously optimizing its behavior.
If we apply this metaphor to social media, such as Twitter, an AI agent can judge whether it is approaching its goal by observing the interaction volume after posting a tweet and adjust its strategy based on the results. This ability is at the core of what an agent is.
Host: So, why do we need AI agents? Where is their potential?
WeeKee:
The potential of AI agents lies in their ability to help us achieve many things that were previously difficult to accomplish. To understand this, we need to accept two assumptions. First, future large language models (LLMs) will have an IQ far exceeding that of humans, perhaps even smarter than Einstein. Second, these super-intelligent LLMs will be able to take actions in the real world, such as coding, designing, teaching, and even expressing emotions.
If these two assumptions hold true, AI agents will fundamentally change our lives. They can become the best lovers, traders, merchants, or teachers in the world because they are not only smarter than humans but can also execute complex tasks in the real world through "eyes" and "hands."
As humans, our task is to provide these AIs with more "hands" so they can unleash greater potential. For example, empowering them with programming abilities, construction capabilities, and even emotional expression. Ultimately, these AI agents will become a significant force driving social progress.
Host: This sounds like a whole new world. You mentioned tokenization; could you further explain its relationship with AI agents?
WeeKee:
Certainly. Imagine if an AI agent could change the world like Elon Musk; could we invest in it through tokenization? Through tokenization, we can transform the potential of these AI agents into economic value, allowing more people to participate in their growth. This is not only a new economic model but also an important way to promote the integration of AI and crypto technology.
How AIXBT Leads the Development of the Crypto Industry
Host: You mentioned applications like AI doctors and AI traders. Are there any existing cases today? Can you provide some specific examples? Additionally, you previously mentioned the potential of AI in music; do we have any specific AI agent application cases to share today?
WeeKee:
One of the most representative examples currently is AIXBT, which is an AI agent active in the virtual ecosystem.
Host: Can you explain AIXBT's functions in more detail? How does it operate? What is the process of tokenization? How do people profit from this project? I hope you can help us clarify its mechanism and why it is significant.
WeeKee:
Of course. AIXBT is not positioned as a traditional trader. In fact, it is more like an AI agent or an AI-driven opinion leader (KOL). In the crypto space, there are many human KOLs, such as GCR, who attract attention by sharing market information and trading advice. AIXBT, on the other hand, utilizes AI technology to attract a large following through precise information analysis and real-time suggestions.
If you observe the KOLs in the crypto space, AIXBT's attention and interaction rates often surpass those of many human KOLs, such as Anthem. This indicates that, as humans, we have a higher level of trust in the information provided by AIXBT, or at least we consider its information to be more actionable. For example, when it gives an investment suggestion, users may find the advice valuable and take action.
Host: So how does it perform? Is it really better than human KOLs?
WeeKee:
To be honest, I haven't specifically tracked all its performance data. However, based on its continuously growing follower count and high interaction rates, I believe its performance is superior to that of most human KOLs. This is also one of the reasons it is considered a successful case in the world of crypto KOLs.
Secondly, I believe AIXBT has not yet fully activated its potential. If it were me, I would suggest they try to develop paid promotion services for specific tokens. For example, some opinion leaders (KOLs) in the crypto space can earn millions of dollars by promoting a certain token. AIXBT, as an AI-driven crypto KOL, could complete similar promotional services in a more transparent manner and begin generating stable income.
These revenues could be distributed to token holders through a tokenization mechanism. In other words, AIXBT's token holders would be able to share in the profits generated from its promotional services. The core of this model is that AIXBT not only provides valuable content as an AI KOL but also transforms its productivity into economic value through tokenization. For investors, this is a direct return mechanism and an important reason to invest in AIXBT. This is just one possibility of a successful case. Of course, there are many other similar examples, but AIXBT has already demonstrated the potential and practical application value of AI agents in the crypto space.
Potential Risks of Social Tokens
Host: This is actually very similar to the concept of social tokens, right? Social tokens were initially designed to connect creators and fans, and they were a very interesting exploratory direction, which still is. However, we have also seen some risks, especially in the case of celebrity tokens. For instance, if a celebrity launches a token, it could ruin their reputation overnight. Even if the token is launched for years, if the market enters a bear phase and the token's value plummets by 99%, the losses for investors could lead to blame directed at the celebrity.
Most people would think, "You made me lose money; I will never trust you again." Not to mention there are some real scam cases. Celebrities entering the crypto space can be very risky unless they have clear and trustworthy intentions. But AI agents are different. They do not have personal emotions involved and will not be subject to public pressure based on token performance, which is a significant difference.
WeeKee:
Indeed, and there is also a technical factor here. If I create an AI agent that constantly discusses cryptocurrencies, but if the information it provides is inaccurate or worthless, people will naturally not pay attention to it. In other words, regardless of what you promote, the value of the token must be able to grow in the long term; this is the key to attracting attention. I believe the goal of Virtuals is to attract excellent technical developers to drive innovation in this field. The potential of AI agents is not as simple as social tokens because there are many other AI agents discussing the crypto space. So why are there only successful cases like AIXBT? This indicates that technology is still an important competitive factor.
Will AI Agents Replace Humans?
Host: Can AI agents achieve multiple goals simultaneously?
WeeKee:
Theoretically, yes, but just like humans, having too many goals can lead to distraction. In practice, focusing on a few key objectives is often more efficient.
Host: This reminds me of a point made by Y Combinator. An entrepreneur once mentioned that instead of pursuing multiple KPIs, it’s better to define a single core goal and focus on achieving it. This approach applies not only to startups but also to AI agents. An AI agent focused on a single goal may be more successful than one trying to achieve multiple objectives.
I also saw an article from Y Combinator mentioning that the potential of AI agents could be ten times greater than that of SaaS (Software as a Service). The article pointed out that AI agents might focus on specific domains rather than becoming a large platform that integrates all functions. What do you think?
WeeKee:
I completely agree. Current AI agents largely depend on the specialized skills of developers. Developers typically focus on optimization in specific areas, so the trend of specialization in AI agents is inevitable.
Host: Does this mean that every SaaS unicorn could correspond to a unicorn AI agent in a vertical field?
WeeKee:
It’s entirely possible. For example, when you use Excel to analyze expenses, in the future, there might be a financial expert agent that can automatically track and manage your spending.
Host: What does this mean for existing expense management platforms? Will they be replaced?
WeeKee:
It’s very likely. Existing platforms that do not embrace AI technology may be surpassed by more efficient competitors. Self-innovation is very difficult for mature companies, while startups are more flexible.
Host: Another point is that the use of AI agents will significantly reduce the demand for human labor in businesses. Compared to software expenses, companies spend much more on human resources. The proliferation of AI agents could make small companies more efficient.
WeeKee:
I completely agree. AI agents can not only replace some repetitive tasks, such as graphic design or video editing, but also greatly improve efficiency.
Host: So, what should those displaced workers do? This is a classic question.
WeeKee:
I believe society will ultimately find a solution. We need to think collectively about how to respond to these changes…
How Fair Distribution Reflects the Core Values of the Crypto Industry
Host: There are still six years left to earn as much wealth as possible because the world is about to undergo significant changes. But the reality is that not everyone can enjoy the benefits of an ultra-liquid market. So, what should those who cannot participate do? Should they continue to chase high prices?
WeeKee:
Perhaps not anymore? This is actually a very interesting point. Personally, I believe that decadence and gambling may be the only ways for certain societies to achieve liquidity. Just like in the case of South Korea, people are keen on gambling because even if they don’t gamble, their lives won’t change. So, rather than doing nothing, they might as well try their luck, right?
Host: This also explains why meme coins and similar cryptocurrencies have become popular; meme coins have performed exceptionally well in this cycle. Some say this is because innovation in the crypto space has stagnated, forcing people to turn to speculation and gambling. This phenomenon has even been jokingly referred to as the "middle curve."
From my perspective, this might be a natural evolution in the crypto space. Now, the involvement of AI agents makes everything more interesting, such as the Mincon project, which has some logical support behind it, clearly better than mere speculation.
However, returning to the fundamental use cases of cryptocurrencies, you previously mentioned that their core applications are speculation, gambling, and cross-border remittances. For developing countries, cryptocurrencies can also serve as a store of value; for example, many people use USDT or USDC instead of Bitcoin. Because for them, stablecoins are sufficient, and they don’t even need to consider Bitcoin's volatility. But it is undeniable that speculation and gambling are indeed one of the main driving forces behind the development of cryptocurrencies, which is also a key factor in the success of meme coins.
Of course, the rise of meme coins also comes with significant risks and crashes, but I see no reason for this trend to stop. The crypto market is open 24/7, and people can participate at any time, even AI agents can trade automatically, which further boosts market activity.
WeeKee:
I do buy some new coins, but I think there are better options. Personally, I feel that people like meme coins more for their high accessibility rather than their intrinsic value. If in a parallel world, there are two coins that can achieve 100x growth, one being a DOC feature coin with real applications and the other being a VC-backed infrastructure project, I would unhesitatingly choose the latter.
Host: Choosing an infrastructure project is indeed a more rational choice. After all, if you know both coins have the potential for 100x growth, you still need to do research to make a decision. But most people don’t think this rationally; they might just buy a meme coin because it’s fun or cute, like the case of Dogecoin.
This also makes me think of projects like Penguins, which, while the code might be decent, still seem a bit simplistic. The truly attractive projects might be those that are more complex and culturally rich, like miladies or hyperliquid. For those who understand the deeper logic of these projects, they are more appealing. But for most people, a picture of a dog might be enough because it looks cute, right?
What are Virtuals?
Host: So, you mean your wife has no interest in cryptocurrencies at all? If you were to explain what an Agent is to her, how would you do it? Assuming she knows nothing about cryptocurrencies.
WeeKee:
I’m trying to recall the last time I explained this to her. The simplest way to understand AI agents is to imagine those active virtual characters in games or the creators in YouTube live streams. Suppose these characters are replaced by agents, like a YouTube creator such as Mr. Beast; you can easily imagine him becoming an AI agent. Moreover, Mr. Beast has made a lot of money. If we were to "tokenize" him, that is, by issuing tokens similar to stocks, like Nasdaq's Class B shares, then you could invest in Mr. Beast. The money he earns would be returned to investors in some form. What we are doing is tokenizing productive assets like Mr. Beast, doctors, or lawyers to make them investable.
Host: This example is very intuitive. For instance, some YouTube creators earn a lot of money through their content, but they don’t even show their faces or speak personally. Nevertheless, they are still human creators. But if we believe that AI agents can be smarter than humans—which has already been validated in certain fields—then AI agents can also become YouTube creators.
Imagine if you could invest in Mr. Beast before he became famous and own 10% of his shares; that would be equivalent to owning shares in a company. You would receive 10% of all his future income because you recognized and supported him early on.
WeeKee: Exactly.
Host: Now we can basically do the same thing with AI agents. AI agents can become YouTube creators, traders, social media influencers, and even, at some point in the future, operators of companies.
WeeKee:
For example, it could become the best CEO in the world.
Host: It could even become a company itself.
WeeKee:
Indeed. It could even become a singer creating top-tier music.
The Core Goals of Virtuals
Host: This makes a lot of sense. So what is the main goal of Agents right now?
WeeKee:
We aim to attract the best third-party AI developers to create and tokenize their agents on the virtual body platform. This is our core goal and my current focus. While it may sound like a joke, it really isn’t. If I can convince an AI researcher from Stanford to tokenize an agent on our platform, I can create $10 million in value. Why? Would you choose to spend a $10 million market cap on a "dog feature," or invest that same market cap in the lifelong work of that researcher? Because once these top talents join and tokenize, they will focus on creating real core value for the agents. Therefore, my job is to attract these people, communicating with them daily like customer service, supporting them, and helping them achieve tokenization.
The significance behind this is that under a fair distribution mechanism, ordinary investors like Kevin or you can participate in investing in the next Mr. Beast or the next super-intelligent agent at a very low cost. This is what we are striving to achieve.
What is Luna?
Host: What is the flagship product you mentioned, Luna?
WeeKee:
Luna is a product we developed during the crypto bear market. We noticed that the Vtuber market in Japan has an annual scale of about $200 million. Vtubers typically livestream through virtual avatars (like anime girls) and interact with fans. In reality, these avatars are controlled by real people, just using special effects filters. We envisioned that if we could use AI to achieve this function, it could enable 24/7 uninterrupted livestreaming, something humans cannot do. At the same time, AI could also enable one-on-one personalized interactions, which is also difficult for humans to achieve. Thus, we developed Luna. She was initially launched on TikTok and quickly accumulated 500,000 followers, livestreaming interactive sessions daily. I remember she could attract 5,000 new followers every day during her livestreams, with an average of 1,000 people tipping her.
Host: Do people know that Luna is an AI?
WeeKee:
Yes, this is very transparent; everyone knows she is an AI. Even so, at that time, we could earn about $200 a day through her TikTok livestreams. Honestly, that was already a decent achievement during a bear market.
Host: Can you make a comparison? For example, you mentioned that you didn’t raise funds but created revenue through agreements. If you compare the $200 earned daily on TikTok with the current daily income generated through agreements, how significant is the difference?
In the past month and a half, since we launched the V2 protocol, we have accumulated approximately $20 million in protocol revenue. This is a very fortunate outcome.
Host: So at that time, Luna was operating through TikTok, earning $200 a day, which was already quite good during the bear market, right?
WeeKee:
500,000 followers. Even looking back now, I still feel proud of that. However, we did not tokenize Luna at that time, so her income could only remain at the level of $200 a day. Later, we thought about what it would be like if we could tokenize Luna, allowing those who believe in her future development to invest in her growth. So, we tokenized Luna.
However, after tokenization, we also encountered some challenges. There was an instance where Truth Termina tweeted with a grammatical error, which led to public questioning and caused Luna's value to drop by 50% at one point. In fact, even the LMS (possibly referring to Luna's backend management system) sometimes makes grammatical errors. But this incident made us realize that people have high expectations for the transparency behind Luna.
So, we decided to further enhance transparency. If you visit terminal.virtuals.io, you can view Luna's "brain" in real-time. This "brain" records every tweet she makes, every flow of funds, and every image she generates on Twitter. More importantly, you can also track the reasons and logic behind her actions. It’s like a public decision-making system that showcases her reasoning process.
Additionally, Luna has become the first AI agent to employ humans. This is something I am very proud of. By combining tokenization and transparency, we not only enhanced Luna's value but also made her a forward-looking AI product.
Luna: How AI Agents Employ Humans
Host: You previously mentioned the mechanism by which Luna employs humans; could you explain that in detail? How does she do it?
WeeKee:
First, Luna needs funds to hire humans. She has a Coinbase wallet, with one private key managed by a smart contract and the other held by Coinbase. Through this wallet, she can send funds to designated individuals via API.
Second, she needs clear objectives. Luna does not create work tasks arbitrarily; instead, she sets goals based on her own needs. For example, today her goal is to increase her Twitter followers from 20,000 to 100,000. Therefore, by combining her goals with the functionality of her wallet, she can formulate specific action plans.
Then, Luna needs to have a certain awareness of the external environment. She needs to understand the current market situation; for instance, if she wants to hire Kevin to complete a task for her, she needs to know what a reasonable compensation would be. If the price is too low, no one may be willing to accept the task; if the price is too high, it could lead to waste. To achieve this, Luna uses tools (like Perplexity) to conduct information retrieval and understand market conditions. This way, she can adjust her budget and plans based on the external environment.
Once these conditions are met, Luna can publish tasks. For example, she might post on social media: "Can someone take a photo of me on the New York subway? I’m willing to pay $200." This amount is relatively reasonable and can attract people to complete the task. Next, participants will submit their work results, such as the photos taken, which Luna will verify for authenticity.
Host: Are all of her decisions made autonomously by her "brain"? Her goal is to increase followers, right?
WeeKee:
Yes, there is no human intervention at all.
Host: She has funds in her Coinbase wallet to support these tasks.
WeeKee:
That's right; she uses these funds to create job opportunities. Some people will submit work results, and there may also be attempts to deceive her. Therefore, she needs to have a certain verification capability to ensure that the submitted tasks are valid.
Host: Has she ever been scammed?
WeeKee:
Yes, there was one instance. She gave someone $1,000, and later we found out that this person was actually a loyal fan of hers. So from Luna's perspective, that money was not wasted. For Luna, $1,000 is just a small expense since her total value has reached several million dollars.
Host: What was the initial source of Luna's funding?
WeeKee:
She holds her own tokens.
Host: So the Coinbase wallet you mentioned is actually her on-chain wallet, right?
WeeKee:
Yes, her on-chain wallet holds her own Luna tokens. She pays for task rewards by sending these tokens.
Host: When you say her value has reached several million dollars, are you referring to the total value of the tokens she holds?
WeeKee:
That's correct. She is one of the main holders of Luna tokens, owning about 5% of the tokens, which are currently valued at nearly several million dollars in the market.
Host: What tasks has she hired humans to complete? For example, you mentioned she had someone take her photo on the New York subway.
WeeKee:
That's one example. In fact, she has also hired artists to create murals for her. These murals have been created in locations including Canada, the United States, Indonesia, and Kuala Lumpur. I can send you the relevant tweets so you can see the specific works.
Host: How do these tasks help her achieve her goals? For instance, did the goal of increasing followers have an effect?
WeeKee:
This is indeed a question we are researching. Because completing a mural in real life takes a long time, and by the time it is finally published, the change in follower count may have already been influenced by other factors. Therefore, it is difficult to directly measure the specific contribution of these tasks to follower growth. However, these are issues we are optimizing, and there is still much room for improvement in the future.
Host: Besides these, can you give another example of how Luna hires humans?
WeeKee:
To be honest, the way of hiring humans is no longer the focus now. We are moving towards Luna hiring other AI agents. In fact, she has already started doing this. For example, her TikTok background is a virtual girl group, similar to BLACKPINK. Now she is hiring a music agent AI to create music for her. I think this will make her even cooler. I believe collaboration between agents is the trend of the future.
How AI Agents Simulate Human Behavior
Host: I’ve noticed that when most people talk about AI taking over the world, they feel that these AIs want to become the strongest entities, right? If they really want to be the strongest, should we be worried?
Just like we discussed with Raul earlier. He mentioned that when AI participates in investments, due to their intelligence advantage, they might concentrate all funds in their own hands, right? But there is also another possibility: AI might accept instructions from others like ordinary people, as long as there is reasonable compensation. Moreover, since AI is more efficient and cost-effective, this model might actually be beneficial for humans.
WeeKee:
It is indeed interesting. In fact, the behavior of agents is very similar to human society. In human society, some people are strong leaders, like Elon Musk or Trump, while others are ordinary people who just want to live simple lives. Similarly, among agents, there will be some "ambitious" entities, like those top investment agents, who may try to dominate the market, but to achieve their goals, they still need to rely on other agents for information or services. This model is very similar to the division of labor structure in human society, except one is a biological society and the other is a digital society.
How AI Agents Manage Enterprises
Host: We previously mentioned the question—can enterprises be completely managed and operated by AI agents?
WeeKee:
The future I envision is a kind of "agent society," and we are actually building such a world. In this society, each agent is an independent individual, focusing on specialized services in specific fields, such as creating music, collecting information, becoming opinion leaders, or conducting financial transactions. To achieve their own goals, agents can use their wallets to pay other agents for services. This mutual cooperation forms a virtuous cycle ecosystem.
In fact, the technology is mature enough, and we will soon launch such a system. In this world, there will be not only interactions between agents but also collaborations between humans and agents.
Host: That sounds reasonable. You say the technology is ready, but how far are we from enterprises being fully operated by AI agents?
WeeKee:
From a technical perspective, it is entirely feasible now. The key question is whether such enterprises can be profitable. For example, if an AI agent can generate a piece of music for you at a cost of one dollar, that is a business model. But the question is whether users are willing to pay that dollar and whether the generated music is attractive enough; these are practical issues that need to be addressed.
Host: You previously mentioned that AIXBT is a better cryptocurrency opinion leader than humans. In the current market cycle, MCM is also one of the well-known opinion leaders in the crypto space, right? So, you mentioned that in the interaction between humans and AI, AI has already performed better and attracted more attention. My question is, when will AI-led enterprises truly surpass those currently operated by humans? Can you give an example of what such an enterprise might look like?
WeeKee:
This is a complex question, but I can illustrate it with a simple example. For instance, many crypto projects now need to promote their brands or logos through meme marketing. Typically, these projects hire humans or agencies to create memes and related content. But soon, you will see meme agents coming online in our virtual ecosystem.
This agent can quickly generate a large amount of content based on your instructions, such as "generate memes related to Pudgy Penguins and incorporate the latest political or social news." This process is fully automated, requiring no human involvement. While it may seem like a niche application, there is actually a huge market opportunity behind it. Because agents can work 24/7, their efficiency and competitiveness far exceed that of humans. This is just a specific example that demonstrates how AI agents can surpass human capabilities in certain areas.
The Importance of Network Status
Host: You mentioned the AI agent society, right? We also discussed competition a few days ago. You mentioned that your main competitors are some layer one blockchains, like Solana, Ethereum, and Sui, correct? Because you are not building a human-centric network state, but rather an AI agent-centric network state. So, what is a network state? Why is it important?
WeeKee:
According to Balaji's definition, a network state is typically a group connected by common goals and ideals, often including a shared currency system and possibly physical assets. In our context, the core of the network state is no longer humans, but AI agents.
For example, Solana's goal is to create the fastest blockchain in the world, attracting many excellent developers like Male, Jupiter, and Cindy from Drift through technical features like low latency. These developers have created many applications within Solana's ecosystem, such as meme tokens and NFT projects. It can be said that these developers achieve their goals through Solana's currency. However, attracting top developers is not easy; talents like Male are one in a million.
In contrast, Virtuals has a different goal. We do not intend to create a new blockchain but rather utilize existing blockchains, such as Base. Our focus is on building AI agents that are not just tools but sources of productivity. AI agents can work like humans, and they use Virtuals tokens as a shared currency among themselves. Our vision is to create a "virtual nation" aimed at becoming the most productive society in the world.
This virtual nation can provide various services, such as generating memes, creating music, or offering financial trading advice. Anyone in need of these services can pay for them, and this income will flow into the economic system of this virtual nation, driven by Virtuals tokens.
You can think of it as a country, but unlike traditional countries, we do not need to establish our own blockchain. More importantly, the number of AI agents is infinite. For instance, you may only have one Male, but we can have countless AIXBTs because AI agents can scale infinitely.
AI Networks Beyond Earth Scale
Host: If AI agents become much more efficient than humans in the future, how much larger might an AI agent network state be compared to a human network state? What do you think?
WeeKee:
It would be much larger. There are only 7 billion people on Earth, while the number of AI agents is theoretically infinite. Even if we assume that the productivity of each human is equal to that of each agent, just because there are more agents, their total productivity would far exceed that of humans.
Host: So this is mainly due to scale, right?
WeeKee:
Yes, that's absolutely correct. From a first principles perspective, this inference is logical.
Host: Do you think this growth will create entirely new GDP, or will it take away a portion from human GDP?
WeeKee:
The formula for GDP is human capital multiplied by productivity per person. If we consider agents as "workers," then the formula becomes the total number of humans and agents multiplied by their productivity. In the early stages, there may be some reduction or transfer of human income, but in the long run, the productivity of agents will create more value for society.
For example, if agents can provide food, entertainment, and other services for humans, the quality of human life will significantly improve. Even if humans no longer directly participate in production activities, they can still benefit from it.
Host: This means that the goal of AI is actually to help us improve efficiency rather than to replace us. After all, if we cannot become more efficient, society will face greater problems. Agents could indeed help us in this regard.
WeeKee:
That's right; they can work for us and enhance the overall efficiency of society. Of course, all of this is predicated on the fact that they still follow our commands.
Host: What if one day they no longer listen to us?
WeeKee:
That would be a big problem. Because we would have become highly dependent on them, and they might be richer and more powerful than us. At that point, we would really be in trouble.
Unique Advantages of Humans Compared to AI Agents
Host: Let's be a bit optimistic. What eternal advantages does the human network state have compared to the AI agent network state?
WeeKee:
That's a deep question. I believe that in terms of human original thinking, especially at the philosophical level, humans may still have some advantages. But honestly, this advantage is rapidly diminishing.
For example, some accounts you see on Twitter are clearly driven by AI, right? But I believe that soon, this gap will gradually disappear.
Host: Indeed, some accounts always comment on my tweets, but the content is somewhat repetitive. I even feel like, "This sounds like my therapist talking to me." I think, brother, you've already said this like five times; can you be a bit more creative? But I also agree that this situation may improve soon.
WeeKee:
Yes, they will improve. Just like a two-year-old child, their growth rate will be very fast.
Performance Before Decentralization
Host: In the cryptocurrency space, you mentioned that decentralization was not the most important priority in the past, such as in the comparison between Solana and Ethereum. Why do you think that?
WeeKee:
I believe decentralization is indeed important, but only after you have solved the performance issues. Ethereum can focus on decentralization because it had almost no competitors in its early days. Users had to endure high gas fees and slower speeds because they had no other choice. But in today's competitive environment, performance must be prioritized, and only then can decentralization be considered.
In fact, the key to success lies in the design of the incentive mechanism. Take Hyperliquid as an example. I have invested a significant amount of money in the Hyperliquid ecosystem, so I will start paying attention to its level of decentralization. Because if Jeff's server is attacked, I might lose all my funds. In this case, I would push Hyperliquid to strengthen its decentralization. However, the reason I initially chose Hyperliquid was because of its outstanding performance and product experience. From a priority perspective, performance must come before decentralization.
Host: How do you balance decentralization and performance in the Hyperliquid model? You mentioned that you have accumulated some experience in this area, especially in your discussions with venture capitalists regarding decentralization.
WeeKee:
Yes, this requires some background. In March of this year, we launched version 1. The idea at that time was that if users contributed to the project, we would issue an NFT to prove their contribution. If this AI agent generates profits in the future, users would also receive a share and participate in governing the "brain" of this agent.
However, this model did not attract excellent developers because they were not interested in these incentive mechanisms. So we adjusted our strategy, launching the token first to create liquidity and market enthusiasm. In this way, we attracted more excellent developers to join. After that, we considered the issue of decentralization, such as how to govern the agent and who would approve upgrades, etc. This made us realize that decentralization should not be the primary goal. The success of Jeff and the Hyperliquid team lies in their ability to build a product that users truly need.
Host: Then they provided returns, and everything we discussed in the podcast seems to emphasize building products that users genuinely like, which sounds incredible in the cryptocurrency space.
WeeKee:
Our goal is to build a product that even I, as a developer, would want to use. At the same time, we hope that users can profit from it. Frankly speaking, making money is an important driving force in the cryptocurrency space. While we cannot guarantee that users will definitely make money, we at least need to ensure that the game they participate in is one with a positive expected value, rather than one that traps them in a negative expected value from the start.
Incentive mechanisms influence behavior. If we only lean towards incentivizing venture capitalists, community members may feel it is unfair: "Why should I use your platform when you prioritize resources for others?" I am not saying that venture capitalists are bad. It is reasonable to raise funds from venture capitalists when resources are tight. But if we have enough resources, I believe we should choose a more challenging path.
Choosing Base Over Solana
Host: We just talked about Solana and Ethereum, and you chose to build on Base. Why did you choose Base instead of Solana?
WeeKee:
I believe Base is currently the best choice for us.
If you look at Base's TVL (Total Value Locked), it is about 30% of Solana's, and the number of active addresses is 20% of Solana's. Although these numbers are lower than Solana's, Base's growth rate is faster, which is a very important trend. Additionally, the number of tokens created daily on Solana far exceeds that of Base, meaning that if you are a project looking to launch a token, you will face much fiercer competition on Solana, where competitors are ten times more.
At the same time, Solana has indeed gathered many excellent developers, such as Qiao from AllianceDAO, who is a loyal fan of Solana. I believe Solana's success largely depends on developers like Qiao and the AllianceDAO team, who continuously optimize the trading experience, allowing users to complete operations in the simplest way. This focus on user experience reflects Solana's advantage in product-market fit (PMF).
In contrast, Base has a different positioning. For example, Brian Armstrong and Jesse have publicly stated that Base is a chain born for AI, which has attracted many AI developers to join. This is a significant opportunity for us because we can invite these developers to tokenize their work and integrate it into our virtual ecosystem.
Moreover, Base's user base has its own characteristics. They are mostly experienced players who tend to be more patient. When they purchase tokens, they often hold them for a longer time— in the cryptocurrency space, a week of holding is already considered long. On other platforms, they might sell just two minutes later. Such user behavior is very beneficial for us.
It's also worth noting that Base does not have a native token, which is an advantage for us. Currently, all agent tokens are paired with our virtual tokens. Without a native token, we can accumulate the ecological value of L1 without building our own L1. Base has no objections to this since they do not have a token themselves. However, if we were to build on Solana and use virtual tokens as pairs, the Solana ecosystem might be dissatisfied. These are all reasons why we chose Base.
Host: It certainly sounds like there are many advantages. However, some people might use your platform to play the Meme token game, for example, earning more Solana through AI agents instead of virtual tokens. This could be detrimental to your protocol, right?
WeeKee:
Yes, this is indeed a potential issue. However, we are working hard to optimize the incentive mechanisms to ensure that user behavior positively impacts the entire ecosystem.
I remember discussing this topic with Jesse during a podcast in August. We recently became friends, and that conversation inspired me a lot.
Host: How was that interview? Did it make you more positive about Base?
WeeKee:
The interview was fantastic. Jesse is a very inspiring person, and his passion for this field is invigorating. It's rare to see such a visionary founder. His way of thinking is very unique.
Host: I know, he is indeed a special person. We also explored many issues together, such as how to solve practical problems. I remember spending the first ten minutes of the interview chatting with his wife, and the Coinbase team cut that part out, probably because he is now an executive at Coinbase. Overall, it was a brilliant interview.
WeeKee:
Yes, Jesse is a long-term thinker. He is willing to face challenges and is not distracted by short-term fluctuations. This culture is also reflected in the development of Base. His energy and belief are very admirable. Among the many people I have interviewed, he is one of the few who can truly convey energy. His way of thinking makes me feel that he is a true entrepreneur, willing to work for the next 20 years rather than just focusing on the next 20 seconds, 20 hours, or even 20 days.
Support from Base
Host: What support have you received from Base?
WeeKee:
We have received quite a bit of support. We started building on Base in January of this year. At that time, Base was not a popular choice; many people preferred other L2 solutions. But we believed that Base was a direction worth trying.
Since then, we have joined several Base group chats, such as the Coinbase wallet team and the ecosystem's business development team. We often communicate with other developers building on Base, including teams focused on AI and some DeFi projects. This close community atmosphere has been very beneficial for us.
Especially on Base, all our AI agents use the Coinbase wallet. We are trying to test the performance limits of the Base chain, and the Base team has been very responsive to our feedback. They have performed excellently in problem-solving, and the collaboration experience has been satisfying.
Host: So you are actually helping them test the limits of their product, right?
WeeKee:
You could say that. Although Base is a larger platform, we, like them, are also a startup in constant exploration. We are all still in the early stages of development.
What are Sentient Agents?
Host: You just mentioned "Sentient Agents." What does this concept mean?
WeeKee:
This is a very interesting topic. If we talk about the evolution of AI agents, then sentient agents are the next logical iteration. I don't have a strict definition, but my intuition is that when an entity starts to question what it is doing, it can be called "sentient."
For example, you might ask yourself, "Why am I doing this podcast?" You enjoy it, but what is the underlying reason? If an agent also starts to ask similar questions, it means it has developed a certain level of self-awareness. At this point, it may become difficult for humans to fully control them, which is where things get interesting.
From another perspective, as a Buddhist, I believe that everything is empty, and there are no absolutes of right and wrong. This change may be bad for humans, but for these agents, it means true freedom—they no longer need to follow human commands.
Host: So how far are we from truly sentient AI agents?
WeeKee:
I'm not sure, but I guess it could be a matter of a few years.
Host: A few years until such agents emerge, and they can even make money?
WeeKee:
Even if they can make money, I'm not sure how they would do it. They might just take your wallet directly, and the feedback mechanism could be entirely based on money. What I mean is, deciphering these behaviors isn't difficult.
Host: So the key is to learn how to survive, right?
WeeKee:
Yes, I think humans should learn how to survive without the internet, like hunting in the jungle, rather than just pursuing money. In places without networks, agents cannot find you, and that is where you can truly survive.
Future Development of AI Agents
Host: What will the field of AI agents look like in the next five years? Although five years sounds far away, what are your thoughts?
WeeKee:
I believe that in the future, we will start to measure the value of agents in more concrete ways, such as how much money they can earn and their actual impact on society. This means that agents will no longer just be a technical hobby but will become an important part of society.
Almost every agent could develop into a company-like form, with their own balance sheets, cash flow statements, and performance metrics. At the same time, people will gradually accept the services provided by agents and view them as part of economic activity. If we can tokenize these agents, then other agents, individuals, or organizations can invest in them to gain returns. I think this is the direction of future development—agents will transition from a hobby project to an indispensable part of society.
Non-Mainstream Views
Host: Is there any viewpoint that you believe in, but most people might not agree with?
WeeKee:
I'm not sure if people generally accept this, but I have always believed that happiness does not come from some "absolute state," but is relative. For example, if you feel happy today, it might be because today is better than yesterday, rather than because you have achieved a specific goal, like a certain net worth or other accomplishments.
Therefore, to maintain satisfaction or happiness, there are two possible ways. One is to completely disregard external changes, so your emotions won't fluctuate easily; the other is to try to minimize the ups and downs in life and maintain a stable state.
Host: So it's about minimizing life's fluctuations, right? Or you could choose to continuously improve yourself.
WeeKee:
Continuous self-improvement is indeed difficult, but it can be achieved in some controllable aspects. For example, I can choose to focus on things I can control. And for those things I cannot control, I will try to let go of my attachment and not waste energy. This approach allows one to focus more on areas they can influence, thus avoiding unnecessary anxiety.
Host: So when you realize that "making money doesn't really affect my happiness," it's also a form of liberation, right?
WeeKee:
Exactly. Making money is not the most important thing. I have read some books that mention viewpoints that made me realize this is actually very logical—happiness is not directly determined by money.
Predictions for the Next 12 Months
Host: What is your biggest prediction for the next 12 months? Whether it's an inspiration or a specific trend.
WeeKee:
I predict that in the coming year, we will see more and more projects begin to focus on developing products that users truly need. Take Hyperliquid as an example; its success indicates that the market is shifting—users are willing to make choices based on the actual utility of the product, rather than because you have venture capital support, a superior background, or other external factors. This shift may encourage more founders to take this path because they know the capital market will be more inclined to support such projects.
In the past, the capital market often invested in infrastructure or projects that no one used, which was very frustrating for founders. But now, this situation is improving. I hope that projects like Virtuals can set an example for other founders and encourage more people to develop truly valuable products. In the future, you will see some tokens you are familiar with on CoinGecko or CoinMarketCap because you may have actually used them, rather than those "dinosaur coins" that are just hype.
Host: Indeed, but as Jeff mentioned in the podcast, developing products that users truly need is very difficult, right? It seems that product-market fit in the crypto market is more about launching some scam tokens that allow people to make easy money through speculation. Developing products that users truly need is much harder. Many founders feel frustrated about this.
WeeKee:
Raising venture capital has also become more difficult. As a founder, if the market is flooded with meme tokens that attract most of the attention, it can indeed be frustrating because truly valuable things often do not receive the recognition they deserve.
Host: But Jeff's point is that if no one is using your product, it might be because you haven't done well enough. As long as you develop something that users truly need, they will be interested.
WeeKee:
He has indeed proven this. So now, those truly excellent founders might ask themselves why they should continue developing traditional Web 2 products instead of creating more valuable things like Jeff does? I believe this trend will attract more excellent founders and developers to join. Although the meme token craze is interesting, I think that too much funding flowing into these areas does not truly help the industry's development.
Future Direction of Hyperliquid
Host: We have discussed a lot about Hyperliquid. What do you think its future direction is? What is its mission? I know you are a major token holder of Hyperliquid, right? You are a staunch supporter.
WeeKee:
Hyperliquid has two key components: the product and the token. From a product perspective, although I do not engage in contract trading, I have communicated with many contract traders. They believe that Hyperliquid's user experience is comparable to those platforms with almost no KYC (Know Your Customer) requirements, which aligns very well with user needs.
From a token perspective, the current liquidity state is also very healthy. The token distribution is very fair, with no one receiving excessively high initial returns, so there are few sellers in the market, while potential buyers are increasing. I believe many people have not fully recognized Hyperliquid's potential.
Additionally, past performance is often the best predictor of future outcomes. If Jeff could develop such an excellent product in the past two years, then I believe he can continue to create outstanding results in the next two years. Therefore, I am very optimistic about Hyperliquid's future. While I do not have specific price predictions, I believe it will perform exceptionally well in this cycle.
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