"Human nature has not changed significantly in the past three thousand years, so it is difficult to completely create a brand new behavior model."

Organized & Compiled by: Deep Tide TechFlow

Guest: Noah Tweedale, Co-founder of Pump.fun

Host: Laura Shin

Podcast Source: Unchained

Original Title: How Pump.fun Plans to Beat Social Media Giants and Win Beyond Crypto

Broadcast Date: September 11, 2025

Key Summary

Pump.fun achieved a revenue breakthrough in a short period and successfully held a highly publicized token sale event. However, with the rise of competitors, the decline in token prices, and the flood of bots releasing tokens, the platform found itself in trouble and faced external criticism, being labeled as a "crypto casino." In the face of these challenges, the team decided to adopt a series of new strategies, including launching a dynamic creator fee model, providing liquidity support for the community, and vigorously promoting live streaming and mobile application development.

In this episode, co-founder Noah Tweedale shared the vision of Project Ascend, explained how the team aligns creators with the community through innovative mechanisms, why buybacks cannot become a long-term business model, and how they are addressing the flood of bots and user losses. Additionally, Pump.fun has developed competitive strategies against mainstream platforms like YouTube, Twitch, and TikTok, aiming to carve out a niche between crypto applications and traditional social platforms.

Highlights

• We do not want to be just a crypto company; we aim to become a company that can have a profound impact on the world, whether through financial means or social means.

• The core of Pump.fun is to create excellent products because ultimately, the quality of the product is the key to determining success or failure. Whether in the cryptocurrency field or other industries, those products that excel in all aspects will always come out on top.

• If you check Pump.fun now, some people can earn $150 in just 12 minutes of live streaming. While this number may not seem very high, considering they only have 10 to 15 viewers, this income is already quite substantial. This level of income is almost impossible to achieve on traditional platforms, representing an increase of 100 times.

• Pump.fun does not have any discovery algorithms for live streaming; it is entirely sorted by market capital. The higher the quality of the live stream, the more attention it receives, and the higher the market capital.

• Our ideal target users are content creators from TikTok, not live streamers from Instagram. This is because TikTok content is generally healthier, more interactive, and easier to attract viewers.

• Every generation creates its own financial system; for example, the Baby Boomers established the modern banking system, the Silicon Valley generation developed new financial tools, and now, the rise of cryptocurrency is an innovation of the younger generation, which will achieve long-term success in the future.

• I believe the main issue for Pump.fun is discoverability, which is how to find the best tokens and achieve a smooth operational experience on the mobile app or website.

• I do not want users to incur losses. On Pump, you know you are purchasing a specific token; even if you may not like it, it is not lying to you, which I find very beautiful, and I enjoy this transparency.

• Rather than setting a fixed roadmap, the Pump.fun team focuses more on rapid iteration and continuous optimization while maintaining close communication with users to understand their real needs. We want to create a comprehensive platform that meets the needs of young people.

• The real competitors should be companies that maintain a significant market share over the long term; I do not believe Zora or Believe pose a threat to us.

• I think gambling and pornography are the worst industries, and I want to make it clear that Pump is a trading product. When you trade on Pump, it is a skill-based activity, not gambling.

• Human nature has not changed significantly in the past three thousand years, so it is difficult to completely create a brand new behavior model. However, by combining and innovating existing behaviors, it is indeed possible to form some new expressions.

The Past Few Months Have Been Turbulent for Pump.fun

Laura:

Today's guest is Noah Tweedale, co-founder of Pump.fun. Pump.fun has been a huge success in the cryptocurrency space over the past few years, becoming one of the fastest-growing companies. Your recent revenue reached $840 million, and you raised $1.2 billion through an ICO. More impressively, your goals are not limited to the crypto space; you also aim to compete with social media giants. However, I want to talk more about the recent situation. Although you have achieved rapid growth over the past few years, this summer seems particularly turbulent, with multiple highs and lows, especially surrounding the ICO event.

Your platform has also lost some market share, and token prices have seen a significant decline. But recently, Pump.fun has regained its dominant position, with over 80% of tokens minted on your platform. It feels like you are on the path to recovery and have released many new announcements. How do you feel about all of this at this moment? What do you think about the recent events?

Noah:

That's a great question. From the outside, the past few months have indeed seemed very crazy. But in reality, Pump.fun was established before 2023, so we have experienced many ups and downs. We faced crises where "the company might not be able to continue operating," as well as moments of "strong growth momentum." For us, this kind of change has become the norm.

From an external perspective, these events may seem extreme, but for our internal team, it is almost part of daily work. Every day brings new challenges and chaos to resolve. This summer was particularly special because our entire development team was fully engaged in building a platform to support the ICO, which is a time-consuming and complex task. Throughout the ICO process, our platform was almost the only system capable of providing comprehensive support, so we were very busy during that time.

Especially in the two weeks leading up to the token launch, our team worked almost around the clock to ensure there were no vulnerabilities in the system. Meanwhile, there was a situation in the market where Let's Bonk was capturing market share, but our focus was entirely on preparing for the ICO. After the token launch, my two co-founders, Alon and Dylan, and I decided to take a week off because we had hardly taken any breaks over the past year and a half, working every week. This short break allowed us to catch our breath and helped us readjust to continue pushing forward with our plans.

Creators Can Earn More Income Through Live Streaming

Laura:

From the outside, the recent dynamic changes at Pump.fun are evident. So, let's talk about some of your new announcements. You recently launched the "Send Project," which, from the announcement, includes multiple modules, but the core goal is to strengthen the connection between creators and the community. One key part is the dynamic fee model. You just released dynamic fee v1, which is a tiered creator fee structure on Pump Swap— the higher the token market value, the lower the corresponding creator fee.

Can you elaborate on what problems you hope to solve with this model?

Noah:

This actually involves a bigger issue, which is the positioning of Pump.fun. We do not want to be just a crypto company. We have made this clear in our announcements. While we will continue to attract users from the crypto space and expand this market, our goal is to become a company that can have a profound impact on the world, whether through financial means or social means. This is the direction we are striving for.

If you observe the current mainstream social media platforms, such as Instagram, Twitter, Twitch (which can also be considered a social platform), TikTok, etc., their success is mainly due to the reward mechanisms they provide for creators. Through this mechanism, platforms can incentivize creators to continuously produce content, just like YouTube. Our goal is to stand out in this field and provide a solution that far exceeds existing platforms. The design of the dynamic fee model is precisely to incentivize content creators, allowing them to not only easily start creating but also to receive more generous rewards than on other platforms.

For example, we recently noticed some interesting data—streaming activities have significantly increased, and private message interactions on the mobile app are also growing rapidly. This indicates that creators are actively participating in the platform's ecosystem. If you check Pump.fun now, some people can earn $150 in just 12 minutes of live streaming. While this number may not seem very high, considering they only have 10 to 15 viewers, this income is already quite substantial. This level of income is almost impossible to achieve on traditional platforms, representing an increase of 100 times.

These live streams may even just be simple chats, without particularly complex or high-cost production. I find this really interesting, especially for those emerging creators, as this model allows them to focus on creating quality content. We hope to help more creators start small and gradually grow into influential large creators through this mechanism.

Laura:

So, basically, you want to provide enough economic incentives for those unknown creators to have the opportunity to keep pushing for breakthroughs.

Noah:

Exactly, but it’s not just about economic incentives. For instance, if you are currently a content creator on Instagram, even though Instagram has hundreds of millions of users, it is still very difficult to earn income even if you have 10,000 followers. On Pump.fun, we hope to enable creators to sustain their livelihoods through a higher cash reward mechanism while building their brands.

In addition, another advantage of Pump.fun lies in "discoverability." Compared to other platforms, we have relatively fewer streams, which means creators are more likely to be discovered by viewers. For example, there are currently only 300 to 500 streams online at the same time, while the potential crypto audience is 5 million. Therefore, the probability of success for creators is much higher than on traditional platforms. Of course, as the platform grows and network effects strengthen, this advantage may gradually diminish, but I believe this is the golden age for creators. It's similar to when Instagram or Tinder first launched, where users could easily gain attention or matches. Nowadays, these platforms have become overly commercialized, focusing more on getting users to purchase paid services rather than creating truly valuable content. We hope to avoid this situation and allow creators to genuinely benefit from their hard work.

How Does Pump.fun Recommend Tokens for Live Streaming?

Laura:

I'm curious because when I entered the Pump.fun homepage, to be honest, I knew I wasn't your primary target user, but I wanted to understand the issue of content discoverability, or how your algorithm works. When I browse the platform, I see a lot of different content, such as some streams where a person is just on a call, promoting a token. I wonder, why is such content recommended? How do you decide which content gets displayed? Can you talk about how creators can get their content discovered by more people?

Noah:

Regarding the main discovery algorithm for live streaming, the tokens currently displayed on the homepage are sorted by market capitalization. In fact, there is currently no discovery algorithm for live streaming; it is entirely sorted by market capitalization. Therefore, we haven't invested much in this area. But our theory is that the higher the quality of the live stream, the more attention it receives, and the higher the attention, the higher the market capitalization. I believe this is how cryptocurrency operates, and this model will continue to influence the entire new social finance landscape.

Strategies for Competing with YouTube and Twitch

Laura:

As a whole, how do you plan your strategy when trying to challenge some mainstream social media platforms? How do you break through the limitations of the cryptocurrency field? Do you think the strategy of bringing in mid-tier streamers is effective?

Noah:

Actually, bringing in streamers is not our core strategy. While we have tried to collaborate with some streamers, in reality, over 99% of the live streaming activities on Pump are initiated by users themselves, mainly through word-of-mouth and user-driven engagement. We have observed that when users stream on our platform and enjoy the process, we proactively reach out to them and encourage them to create more content. For example, we have invited some streamers to participate in events we sponsor, such as going to Africa to photograph wild zebras. This approach not only creates unique experiences but also inspires higher quality content.

Our focus is not solely on attracting streamers but rather on opening the platform and encouraging users to create content. If users are interested in live streaming, they can contact us, and we have a dedicated live streaming team to support them. To help them get started, we have invested over $250,000 in live streaming equipment, such as webcams and microphones. These tools make it easier for them to start streaming. We prefer a bottom-up approach, allowing users to use our platform out of passion.

Our ideal target users are content creators from TikTok, not live streamers from Instagram. This is because TikTok content is generally healthier, more interactive, and easier to attract viewers.

Laura:

Why did you decide to focus on live streaming among all social media activities?

Noah:

This is based on observations of user behavior. We found that many users were doing small-scale live streams in Telegram groups, and even though only a dozen people were watching, the interaction was very engaging. Therefore, we decided to add live streaming features to the platform. This decision-making process is similar to how we introduced the DM feature. Users both inside and outside the crypto community, especially venture capitalists and traders, are using Telegram. If we can provide features that better meet the needs of cryptocurrency users and create an ecosystem designed specifically for crypto traders, that would be very unique.

Our goal is to observe user behavior and build a better product for them based on those behaviors. This is the core idea behind our strategy design.

Laura:

So, this is a way to interact with friends in real-time digitally, even if everyone may not be in the same place, but they are all online?

Noah:

Exactly. I think this approach is particularly important for the younger generation, who are almost always online. The primary user demographic of Pump is young people aged 18 to 24, who are tired of traditional zero-sum games, finding these activities lacking in social interaction and not very interesting. As Alan said, Pump's goal is to become the most interesting place on the internet, and I completely agree with that philosophy.

Laura:

When you talk about entering the sports and gaming sectors, how do you identify users who naturally flow into the platform and cultivate them to become content creators in these areas?

Noah:

This is not a simple process of selecting users. We pay attention to those who consistently stream on Pump, maintain communication with them, and provide support. For example, similar to TikTok's operational approach, we organize groups to provide training and incentives for streamers, such as free food, and even host live streaming boot camps to help them learn how to create quality content. This is a naturally evolving process.

We also strive to understand the needs of different types of streamers. For instance, gaming streamers may prefer a subscription-based revenue model or want to increase interactive features, or even support for multiple people streaming simultaneously. By building relationships with these streamers, we gradually understand their real needs rather than directly asking them what they want. This approach helps us optimize platform features while meeting user expectations.

Will Pump.fun's Buyback Become Programmatic?

Laura:

So far, you have conducted a $75 million buyback, which has clearly excited the community. However, I noticed a problem: currently, these buybacks are voluntary and not executed through a fixed program. Do you have plans to make the buyback mechanism programmatic?

Noah:

This is a question worth exploring in depth. If we observe the current market, we find that very few buybacks are fully programmatic, but I'm not sure if hyperliquid's buyback is as programmatic as everyone claims. I believe that if adjustments to these buyback mechanisms are needed, they can be made quickly. That’s the first point.

When deciding on the buyback method, we referenced some successful companies in the cryptocurrency field. For example, Binance used 50% of its trading fees to buy back BNB tokens in its early stages. Hyperliquid, on the other hand, used 100% of its revenue for buybacks. I think these models are worth learning from. Looking back at our practice, we initially set a buyback ratio of 25%, but later adjusted it to 100%. Pump.fun's goal is to learn from leading companies in the cryptocurrency field and follow their successful experiences.

Laura:

This seems very interesting to me. You raised a lot of funds while selling tokens to users. Now you are using those funds to buy back tokens that users have already purchased. This operation might seem a bit unusual due to its speed.

Noah:

From a business perspective, this strategy may not be the optimal choice. However, in the cryptocurrency field, whether it’s Pump.fun, hyperliquid, Binance, or other centralized exchanges, the buyback mechanism itself has certain limitations. Imagine if Amazon distributed 20% or 100% of its revenue as dividends to shareholders every year; this is clearly unrealistic. Such a model cannot support a company in achieving global scale, especially in the cryptocurrency market, where situations like Pump.fun tokens are even more pronounced.

I think it’s important to understand effective practices in the crypto market. In fact, many people misunderstand how equity and token distribution works. Therefore, using buybacks to convey confidence to the market while showcasing the potential value of the tokens is an effective way. Letting users see that buybacks are indeed happening can enhance their trust.

Every dollar used for buybacks does bring a certain rationale, but it also depends on how you view the issue. These funds could have been used for marketing, acquisitions, hiring, or employee bonuses, and these investments could help the company achieve greater growth in the long term. However, Pump.fun is currently in a unique phase with ample capital reserves, so how to allocate these resources is entirely up to our strategic choices.

LetsBonk Captures Market Share, But Not for Long

Laura:

Why do you think LetsBonk was able to capture Pump.fun's market share in just a few months?

Noah:

I think this is a very common phenomenon. Looking back at the development history of Pump.fun, we can see that similar situations have occurred many times. For example, Dex Screener initially launched a competing product called PUBG (PlayerUnknown's BattleGrounds), and later Justin Sun also tried to launch a competitor to Pump.fun, along with other similar projects.

These competitors typically attract users by offering a lot of incentives, such as allowing users to earn higher returns by purchasing tokens. For traders familiar with how financial markets operate, they often choose these platforms because they can gain more profits from them. However, this phenomenon is often short-lived. Once the incentive policies end, users and market share usually flow back quickly.

This actually reflects the core positioning of Pump.fun. We are not a company that relies on short-term partnerships, nor do we manipulate the market through unethical means. Our core is to create excellent products because ultimately, the quality of the product is the key to determining success or failure. If you closely observe Pump.fun's user interface, live streaming features, mobile app, private messaging features, and a series of unique designs, these are advantages that other products cannot replicate.

While these features may seem insignificant when viewed individually, when they are combined, they can form a more competitive product that attracts users to stay on the platform long-term. Therefore, in the face of competition, we always focus on optimizing the product itself. Whether in the cryptocurrency field or other industries, those products that excel in all aspects will ultimately prevail over their competitors.

Noah:

We have always focused on user experience during the development process, and external noise and distractions are not important to us. Although we have indeed lost some market share in the short term, we are well aware that this is not the endgame. We have experienced similar situations multiple times, and we will continue to focus on building better products, which is the most important thing. Frankly speaking, the recent distractions are mainly due to the immense pressure brought by the token release, but we will adjust our state as soon as possible and get back on the right track.

Applications like Zora or Believe are not true competitors

Laura:

Do you think Zora is a competitor to Pump Fund?

Noah:

No, I don't think so. I have great admiration for the Zora team; they have indeed developed some outstanding products. Their goal is not just to serve traditional cryptocurrency users but to design solutions for a broader group of creators. I think that is very special, and their mobile application embodies this concept well.

Every team has its own different development direction, and I believe the key is to stay true to your beliefs and execute continuously. Our vision is very user-centric, truly understanding the needs of users. We communicate with users every day to uncover their problems and needs.

I think a potential risk is if we try to predict the needs of future users five years ahead while ignoring the actual problems of current users, it could lead to the failure of the entire project. Therefore, the most important thing is to focus on the users who are currently using the platform, rather than being overly concerned with the groups that may become users in the coming years. Only by addressing the needs of current users can we lay a solid foundation for future growth.

Laura:

Regarding competitors in the cryptocurrency field, how do you view Pump.fun in relation to some other competitors in the crypto space, such as Zora and Believe? Can you talk about the market segment Pump.fun wants to carve out and the brand image you hope to shape?

Noah:

I don't consider these companies to be our true competitors. They may enter the market and attract some attention in the short term, but they usually lose momentum quickly. True competitors should be those companies that can maintain a significant market share over the long term, and currently, there are no such competitors. Therefore, I don't see Zora or Believe as a threat to us.

We are more focused on some large companies both inside and outside the cryptocurrency industry. I believe the real competitors are those large-scale enterprises with long-term influence. For example, Pump.fun's revenue level is already close to some of the largest centralized exchanges in the world. I even believe that our quarterly profits may have surpassed companies like Coinbase. This is particularly noteworthy because our team consists of only about 65 employees.

If you analyze the current market situation closely, you will find that we are very different from these smaller companies. While these companies may occasionally capture a small portion of the market share, from an investor's perspective, that is not the focus. If you are a user of Pump.fun, you should be concerned about how we can increase our daily revenue from $2 million to $20 million, or even $50 million.

Our core strategy is to focus on the self-iteration of the protocol, rather than simply improving profit margins. For example, we are more focused on how to create a product that can self-propagate, achieving 10x or even 100x growth. This means we are always looking for new opportunities that can drive exponential growth, rather than just relying on existing users to increase revenue. This mindset allows us to continuously break through, carve out new market space, while maintaining the innovation and appeal of the product.

Aiming to create an application that changes the world, rather than pursuing small goals

Laura:

Noah, why do you want to create an application that can change the world, rather than focusing on some small goals?

Noah:

I don't particularly care about the competition for market share. I believe that focusing on these short-term small goals is not the purpose of our existence. We hope to explore how to drive the long-term development of the company in specific areas like virtual reality. Compared to market share and revenue growth, I am more concerned with whether we can truly create products that have a profound impact.

Our goal is to build a company that can have a significant impact in the cryptocurrency space. Even the current giants in the industry, like Coinbase and Binance, I believe they have not truly achieved global influence. Take Coinbase as an example; their product is primarily a Bitcoin wallet, and while it is stable in functionality, there hasn't been much change from a product innovation perspective.

I hope we can become a company like Apple or some social media platforms, whose products are used by billions of people every day, truly changing the way people live. We do not want to be limited to small goals in the cryptocurrency space, but rather focus on how to create products that can have an impact on a global scale.

While we will develop some traditional crypto products, our core goal is how to change the world. We hope to continue working hard over the next few decades to truly make an impact on society. Therefore, our way of thinking from the very beginning has not been to establish a crypto-native company, but to create a company that can have a global impact.

Does Pump.fun prioritize specific user groups?

Laura:

So, does Pump.fun prioritize specific user groups? For example, do you prioritize creators or traders? How do you segment your user groups?

Noah:

Actually, there is no such prioritization issue. I think current social media platforms, like TikTok, do not explicitly favor content creators or consumers. The reality is that the boundary between the two is not clear, and they are intertwined through algorithms, which is the beauty of it. The algorithm weaves together consumers and content creators, forming an interconnected market.

So, I think this is a very complex issue, how to create a two-sided market that includes users from the crypto space while integrating cutting-edge elements from platforms like Robinhood, Twitch, and TikTok. I believe this is not a problem that can be solved with a simple button, but rather requires rapid small-scale iterations to gradually improve the product by 1% every day.

Areas the team focuses on improving in the application

Laura:

Noah, what areas does your team primarily focus on improving in the application? What do you think is the biggest challenge Pump.fun currently faces?

Noah:

I think the main issue is discoverability, which is how to find the best tokens and achieve a smooth operational experience on the mobile app or website. This is a very important issue and a core aspect of product design that cannot be overlooked.

Additionally, we are also working hard to clarify user needs and the overall goals of the company. In fact, user needs and company goals are closely linked. If we always focus on user needs, even if the business is temporarily in a loss or stagnation, as long as users are satisfied, the company will ultimately achieve long-term success. Therefore, we place great importance on listening to user feedback and understanding the problems they face, which are the key issues we prioritize solving.

Laura:

I noticed that you have taken the first step in community takeover and adjusted the fee structure. This seems to be aimed at encouraging users to focus not only on short-term gains but also on creating a more lasting and impactful community. Do you agree with this perspective?

Noah:

I completely agree. I hope the tokens can perform excellently, as that would be the best outcome for everyone. The platform's performance would improve as a result, and users who purchase these tokens would also benefit, ultimately achieving global success. We have already seen many tokens perform well in significant events, showcasing the cohesion of large communities and the positive impact these tokens have on the overall ecosystem.

We do hope that larger tokens can perform better, as the effects will be more pronounced. As for the concept of a CTO, our intention is to provide users with more choices. For example, when a developer leaves their project, and another community wants to take over and support that token, we hope to provide tools to help them smoothly take over and continue development.

Of course, this is not a simple issue. We are working hard to address these challenges, just like with other aspects of the product, which requires continuous iteration and optimization to gradually achieve. We will continue to listen to user suggestions and make adjustments to ensure the product meets user needs while promoting the overall progress of the ecosystem.

How Pump.fun Establishes Interoperability with the Broader Crypto Ecosystem

Laura:

How does Pump.fun achieve interoperability with the broader crypto ecosystem? I noticed that many tokens are discovered on other platforms, such as through bots, wallet token pushes, or DEX screeners, rather than on the homepage or app of Pump.fun. How do you plan to attract more users to use Pump.fun directly?

Noah:

Currently, some token discovery and trading activities occur on external platforms to Pump.fun. But I think this is actually an advantage, not a disadvantage. This openness is what makes Pump.fun unique. Unlike closed ecosystems like Twitter, Instagram, or Snapshot, Pump.fun allows users to trade directly on its front end while consuming content. Additionally, our mobile app and front-end platform also have considerable user activity.

From an infrastructure perspective, this openness provides more possibilities for Pump.fun, meaning users can complete operations through trading terminals on other platforms. At the same time, centralized exchanges and decentralized exchanges (DEX) are continuously launching new features, making Pump.fun a part of the entire crypto ecosystem. Whenever a new platform launches a token based on Pump.fun, these tokens will be discovered and used by users in multiple places, further enhancing the network effect.

The advantage of this interoperability is that the entire ecosystem is open and interconnected, rather than isolated like traditional Web 2 platforms. While this openness also brings some challenges, for Pump.fun, it feels more like a feature than a flaw. In this way, we can not only develop in synergy with the broader crypto ecosystem but also expand user choices while enhancing the platform's influence.

How the team addresses the issue of bots releasing tokens

How does the team address the issue of bots releasing tokens? I noticed that Coinbase's executive Connor Grogan mentioned in a tweet in July that most tokens launched on Pump.fun and other platforms are actually operated by bots. Statistics show that top accounts launch a new token every three minutes on average. This reminds me of the overwhelming amount of bot-generated information on crypto Twitter today. How are you addressing this?

Noah:

This is a natural phenomenon. As more real users start using products like Pump.fun, bots will also flood in. This situation is inevitable on any open platform. I mentioned earlier that we need to pay special attention to preventing users from losing money by purchasing tokens released by bots. This is similar to the bots spreading misinformation on Twitter, which is clearly something we want to avoid.

However, directly confronting bots is not the best way to solve the problem. It’s a battle that is hard to win; even tech giants with hundreds of thousands of employees cannot completely eliminate bots. Therefore, our focus is on how to provide users with effective tools to help them identify the source of tokens, whether they are released by bots or created by real users. This ability to identify is crucial and is closely related to the optimization of the platform's algorithms. By improving the algorithms, we can better help users discover quality content while avoiding potential risks.

Laura:

So you don't think bot tokens are a problem?

Noah:

I believe that any content has its value to some extent, as long as it does not harm users. In fact, bot-generated content can sometimes bring interesting, personalized, or even viral effects, like the memes we commonly see online. Currently, about half of the content globally is generated by AI, and this trend will only continue to grow in the future.

Therefore, completely banning bot tokens is not a realistic solution. We need to start from the needs of users and help them identify and avoid trading these tokens. For example, by optimizing algorithms to provide clearer recommendations to users, helping them steer clear of bot tokens. This is the key direction we are focusing on.

Trying to directly ban bot tokens or stop their spread is not only extremely difficult but may also lead to more complex confrontations. Instead, we should focus on providing services to users, helping them identify and choose content that is truly worth investing in. This approach aligns better with Pump.fun's openness and user-oriented philosophy, while also better addressing this challenge.

Are you worried about a large number of users losing money?

Laura:

Are you worried about a large number of users losing money on their investments? Many people mention that most investments in meme tokens and on Pump.fun have not been profitable. According to recent data, about 60% of users are in a losing position. Do you think this is a problem that needs to be addressed, or do you see it as a normal phenomenon in investing?

Noah:

We certainly do not want users to lose money. This is not an ideal outcome for either users or us. Therefore, we have been working hard to avoid this situation.

However, this issue needs to be viewed in a larger context. If you compare the profit and loss ratio of Pump.fun with the win-loss ratio of perpetual contract trading, I believe Pump.fun performs better. Even if you look at the spot trading data of the top 100 tokens, you will find that their return on investment may be lower.

There are many reasons for the losses. For example, some project founders engage in opaque or even confusing operations, and I have witnessed similar situations. Additionally, many venture capital firms are involved in the operations of these projects, further complicating matters. One of the reasons we developed Pump.fun was to address these issues. In the past, when you purchased certain tokens, you might not even know who the founder behind them was, and the information about the project was deeply hidden. Worse still, when these founders sold off tokens, users often suffered losses as a result.

But on Pump, you know what you are buying. You are purchasing a specific token; even if you may not like it, it is not lying to you, and I find that very beautiful. I enjoy this transparency.

Differences between mobile and desktop usage on Pump.fun

Laura:

I want to ask about the mobile application you launched last winter. I'm curious, what are the differences in user experience between mobile and desktop? Additionally, what is the approximate usage ratio between mobile and desktop?

Noah:

Of course, I can talk about that. The biggest difference between mobile and desktop is user retention. We have found that user retention on mobile is significantly higher. This is because mobile is not only a convenient trading tool but also integrates wallet functions and has certain social attributes, forming a closed ecosystem. This excites me because mobile applications are easier for users to share, and the virality among users is stronger.

While this is not absolute, from the perspective of front-end usage, I estimate that mobile activity accounts for about 25%. In fact, our current development focus is gradually shifting towards mobile.

We feel that the competition on desktop is somewhat like a battle destined to fail. Everyone is focusing on desktop, especially large companies and centralized exchanges like Coinbase. Many operations involving large amounts of money are conducted on desktop. I see this as a problem because it essentially limits the company's growth, while mobile can provide us with greater growth potential, which is what we truly want to pursue.

How does Pump.fun handle regulatory and compliance issues?

Laura:

I'm curious, the UK's Financial Conduct Authority has stated that Pump.fun does not have an operating license in the UK. Generally, the laws regarding online gambling and casinos may vary by jurisdiction. I want to understand how you view these regulatory and compliance issues. Strategically or otherwise, how are you addressing them?

Noah:

This is a matter we take very seriously. We have assembled a large legal team, including in-house legal experts and multiple external advisors. Our goal is to remain highly vigilant and ensure strict compliance with the relevant regulations in each jurisdiction. If we identify any areas that need adjustment, we will take swift action to correct them.

Compliance is crucial for us. Conducting business in a way that may violate regulations is not only meaningless but can also negatively impact the company's long-term development and the market reputation of our products. Regarding the regulatory gap you mentioned, we are indeed very concerned. Whenever we identify a problem, we make adjustments or resolve it to ensure that similar situations do not occur again. Therefore, compliance is an important priority for us.

Insisting that Pump.fun is a trading product, not a gambling tool

Laura:

Are you intentionally entering the gambling niche market?

Noah:

I believe gambling and pornography are the worst industries, and I want to make it clear that Pump is a trading product. When you trade on Pump, it is a skill-based activity, not gambling. If you focus on gambling, the content will be very boring; you are just watching others play slot machines, which is not what you want. You want to see people doing interesting things or creators like some of the biggest YouTubers, and that is the activity we are trying to incentivize.

However, this does not prevent us from exploring different niche markets. While we are not entering the online gambling space, we will pay attention to different areas such as sports and gaming. We will conduct various tests to understand which areas are effective and which are not, gaining a deeper understanding of user psychology and usage patterns. Therefore, this is the process of conducting A/B testing and identifying effective niche markets, and then expanding in areas we believe or think will be most successful. We have observed that real-life content (IRL) and related live activities perform very well.

Laura:

I want to ask because I know there are some criticisms of Pump.fun and similar platforms from the outside, with some calling it a "Meme casino." How do you respond to these criticisms?

Noah:

I believe many criticisms are based on misunderstandings or a lack of in-depth understanding. If these critics could truly take the time to research our platform or even experience it firsthand, they might discover the value within. Many criticisms come from an older generation who may have made their wealth through Ethereum or Bitcoin, but they may not fully understand the core concept of Pump. For them, Pump may just seem like a meme platform, but in reality, this classification does not fully reflect our essence.

The younger generation is creating some very promising and impactful platforms, and Pump is one of them. I believe we are one of the most successful teams among entrepreneurs under 24. If these facts are not enough to prompt a reevaluation of our value, it may take more time for them to understand.

Laura:

From a personal perspective, do you prefer to see yourself as an entrepreneur in the cryptocurrency space, a meme promoter, an innovator in streaming, or a developer in social media? Since Pump involves multiple fields, do you have a preference for these different identities?

Noah:

Before founding Pump, I had already accumulated some experience in the cryptocurrency field. I believe Pump should not be limited to a single area. Our team has three co-founders, each with their own expertise and perspectives, and this diversity allows us to create a comprehensive platform that integrates various elements.

I am interested in both financial systems and social dynamics, especially how these factors influence people's behavior. More importantly, I am passionate about creating products that can be widely used and that can change users' thinking and behavior. This cross-disciplinary exploration feels very meaningful to me.

Laura:

You are trying to push the platform towards mainstream adoption, but in this process, there may be some contradictions between innovation and reputation. For example, what have you learned from past live events involving threats of violence, and how have you addressed these challenges?

Noah:

The biggest lesson we learned from these events is that in the early stages of product launch, we were too focused on quickly rolling out features without fully considering quality and the potential risks involved. This made us realize that when developing new features, we must be prepared in advance and consider the worst-case scenarios. There needs to be someone on the team to remind us that if things go wrong, it could have serious consequences.

When something bad happens, we immediately shut down the live streaming feature and establish a dedicated review team for real-time monitoring. Now we have a strong team responsible for overseeing activities on the platform to ensure everything runs smoothly. Additionally, new product releases like DM also come with risks, such as people potentially sending inappropriate messages or illegal content, so we need to strengthen our review processes in this area.

In summary, it may sound a bit cliché, but learning from past mistakes and iterating quickly is crucial; otherwise, you won't be able to make this platform interesting.

How Pump.fun Adapts to an Expanding Wealth Gap

Laura:

I want to ask some more philosophical questions because I find your work very interesting. If we look back at the history of the internet, it has gone through three stages: "reading, writing, owning." So, what is your role in Web 3? What do you think Pump culturally represents? You are clearly driving some new forms of behavior and activity, but specifically, what are they? How do you see your position in the evolution of internet history?

Noah:

I think this reflects the current needs of young people. In today's society, I have witnessed the widening wealth gap: the rich are getting richer, while ordinary people find it difficult to break free from existing economic shackles. Many feel trapped in a rigid system, struggling to find opportunities for change. At the same time, social media platforms like TikTok and Instagram Reels occupy a significant amount of people's time, with many spending ten hours a day browsing content. Some even buy iPhones primarily to consume this content more conveniently, using Instagram more for watching ads. This situation leaves many feeling lost.

Against this backdrop, Pump aims to provide a new option, allowing people to break free from existing frameworks and regain control of their lives. While it may sound bold, this is the essence behind memes. If you talk to young people, especially those with some understanding of finance or cryptocurrency, they will tell you they want to create a financial system of their own to escape the current feeling of being "controlled" (similar to the "Matrix" mentioned in the movie).

Many believe that the emergence of the internet has made information more accessible, thereby improving people's quality of life. I think this is true to some extent, but it has also brought new problems. In the past, people could at least relieve stress by going out, but now they are firmly attracted to platforms like Instagram and TikTok, making it almost impossible to disengage. We hope to create an environment through Pump where people can gain actual benefits while consuming content. If you spend a lot of time on content, we want you to create a whole new market through investment and participation.

I believe that every generation will create its own financial system. History has proven this, such as the Baby Boomers establishing the modern banking system, the Silicon Valley generation developing new financial tools, and now, the rise of cryptocurrency is an innovation of the younger generation. I think this indicates that cryptocurrency will achieve long-term success in the future.

Laura:

By observing how people use Pump, have you gained new insights into human behavior? Have you discovered any new behavioral patterns or observed cultural and social evolution?

Noah:

I believe culture and society often repeat themselves in different forms. Human nature has not changed much in the past three thousand years, so it is difficult to create an entirely new behavioral pattern. However, by combining and innovating existing behaviors, it is indeed possible to form some new expressions. I remember when we first started, seeing users combine chart analysis in live streams was a brand new content form that felt very special to me. This kind of innovation is exactly what we hope to inspire through Pump.

The Project Roadmap is a Fallacy

Laura:

Returning to the grand goals you mentioned earlier, have you established a roadmap, even a rough one, to outline how to compete with platforms like TikTok?

Noah:

To be honest, I do not agree with the concept of a "roadmap" and hope everyone can reevaluate it. There is no so-called ten-step plan that can ensure you become the largest company in the world; such thinking is unrealistic. If we observe some successful companies, like WhatsApp, the product itself has hardly changed since its launch; it has achieved scaled growth through small but critical adjustments.

The secret to these companies' success often lies in focusing on optimizing details. For example, WhatsApp was initially a paid service, then became free; it gradually supported multiple languages and increased the group chat limit to accommodate up to 1,000 people. These seemingly minor changes have actually propelled the platform into its next growth phase.

Our team's goal is similar. Rather than establishing a fixed roadmap, we focus more on rapid iteration and continuous optimization while maintaining close communication with users to understand their real needs. By incorporating this feedback into our vision for the future, we hope to create a comprehensive platform that meets the needs of young people—a "one-stop" product where they can chat, consume content, and manage personal finances. I believe that such a platform is the direction of the future and our goal.

Will Pump.fun Develop into a "Super App"?

Laura:

If I summarize the development direction of Pump.fun in the coming years, it seems to revolve around building a community around creators and their published content. Both creators and the community can gain economic benefits from the platform, while the creators' content will also integrate real-time streaming features.

Can you envision this app eventually evolving into a platform similar to a "super app," where users can manage their savings and consume content, like an integrated app that combines TikTok, Robinhood, and banking functions?

Noah:

This is indeed our vision. We want to create a "super app," but unlike existing super apps, our goal is to cater to the needs of the younger generation. Traditional super apps, like Facebook, have gradually lost their appeal; these platforms are designed more for past user groups rather than today's young people. Our goal is to attract a new generation of users, such as the young audience of TikTok. We want to think about what kind of products the next generation of 18-year-olds truly needs.

Laura:

Considering the controversies and negative labels associated with memes, do you have strategies to help Pump.fun gain acceptance among mainstream users?

Noah:

We deliberately avoid defining Pump.fun as a meme platform. While some users do use it in this way, we designed it as a tool that can meet various needs. If users simply upload YouTube-like videos, then Pump.fun would become a video-sharing platform. This is precisely what makes Pump unique—it is an infrastructure that allows users to use it flexibly according to their needs.

So I wouldn't say Pump is a meme platform. It can be a short video trading platform, a live trading platform, or even a messaging app; its functionality entirely depends on how users choose to use it. I believe the trend for large applications in the future is to provide users with diverse choices, allowing them to use it in their own way. For example, Twitter—some people use it for news, while others use it for socializing; everyone has different uses.

Laura:

You mentioned the real-time streaming feature, which reminds me of prediction markets like event contracts. Have you considered how to combine the two?

Noah:

Prediction markets are indeed a hot topic, but in practice, they have not generated real value. While prediction markets exist, their revenue and user scale are very limited. For example, our daily trading volume can sometimes reach billions of dollars, while the monthly trading volume of prediction markets is only around one hundred million, which clearly indicates where user interest lies.

I believe prediction markets are more of a concept packaged for venture capital rather than a sustainable* business model*. Unless there is a significant breakthrough, these markets are unlikely to be profitable. Our focus has always been on creating products that users truly need, rather than chasing market trends.

Laura:

One last question, can you share any news about airdrops?

Noah:

All news regarding airdrops will be released through official channels, such as Twitter.

Many successful products did not initially present themselves in their final form. For example, YouTube or Facebook were not widely accepted in their early stages. Over time, products evolve continuously. Therefore, focusing on long-term development and* continuous improvement* is very important.

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