Original Title: Kyle Samani: Forward and onwards - the job is not done with Solana

Original Source: Mable Jiang

Original Compilation: Ismay, BlockBeats

Editor’s Note: As the DAT craze continues to ferment, Solana has once again become the focus of capital and narrative. Kyle Samani, founder and partner of Multicoin Capital, recently, in his new role as chairman of Forward Industries, pushed for a $1.65 billion PIPE financing, injecting a new strategy of "Solana Digital Asset Vault" into this Nasdaq-listed company. For him, this is not only a financial engineering feat in the capital markets but also a frontier experiment of the "Internet capital market" vision. Whether through DeFi and mergers to amplify "earnings per SOL" or exploring on-chain governance, on-chain dividends, and on-chain shareholder structures, Kyle is trying to answer one question—can a U.S. listed company be natively on-chain and reshape the global capital market with Solana as its foundation?

The following is the full content of the conversation:

Mable Jiang: Hello everyone, welcome to the latest episode of the Backwave Podcast, I am your host Mable. Today, I am very pleased to invite a special guest, who was actually the opening guest when I first did a crypto podcast—Kyle Samani.

Kyle Samani: Mable, thank you very much for inviting me again. I remember this is my second time on your podcast, and I’m glad to be here with everyone. I am Kyle Samani, founder and managing partner of Multicoin Capital. We are an SEC-registered investment advisory firm based in the U.S., and we are approaching our eighth anniversary this year, specifically on October 1.

We currently manage about $3 billion to $4 billion in assets, covering hedge funds and a range of venture capital funds. Just a few days ago, I also became the chairman of Forward Industries, a company listed on Nasdaq.

This week we announced a very exciting deal: Multicoin co-initiated and participated in a $1.65 billion PIPE investment, which was officially completed last Wednesday. As part of the deal, Forward Industries has added a significant strategic direction beyond its core business—creating a Solana digital asset vault company. We are very much looking forward to working with the Forward team, as well as colleagues from Jump, Galaxy, and Multicoin to drive this forward.

From Multicoin to Forward, Kyle's "Dual Identity" Turning Point

Mable Jiang: That’s great! I intentionally did not mention your title at the beginning because you are now both a managing partner at Multicoin and the chairman of Forward Industries. Before we dive into the details, let me ask a simple question: if someone wants to buy Forward's stock in the secondary market, what kind of exposure are they actually getting?

Kyle Samani: That’s a very interesting question.

Forward Industries is a Nasdaq-listed company with the stock code FORD, which can be easily confused with Ford Motor Company, whose code is F, while ours is F-O-R-D. So, if you buy Forward Industries stock, you are primarily gaining strategic exposure to our Solana digital asset vault.

After completing the transaction last Wednesday, the company has already started buying SOL. I think by the time this podcast goes live, we will also publicly disclose our specific SOL holdings, so stay tuned. In fact, I personally invested $25 million into Forward. I am very excited about this opportunity because as a public company, we have the chance to earn "SOL per share" that is greater than simply buying SOL itself.

The most direct way is to actively participate in DeFi. One of the biggest differences between Solana and Bitcoin is that it has a thriving DeFi ecosystem with various protocols. We are fortunate that, through my role at Multicoin, we have invested in almost all of the core projects in this ecosystem and are very familiar with these founding teams. So we are currently in discussions with these teams to collaborate, not only to earn native yields by depositing assets but also to secure additional incentives and profit-sharing for our shareholders.

We believe this is a win-win outcome for both parties. It is obviously good for shareholders and also beneficial for those DeFi protocols. Because we are a public company, it means these DeFi protocols can claim that their systems are actually being used by a Nasdaq-listed company, which itself brings additional value. So the first aspect is leveraging our scale, brand, and reputation to negotiate these collaborations.

The second point is that we are trying to enhance shareholders' "SOL per share earnings" through capital market arbitrage. What does that mean? In the U.S., you can currently get a loan from a bank at 4% to 5%. Of course, whether we can fully tap into this is still uncertain, but we will definitely try our best. Even if the final loan cost is 7%, 8%, or even 9%, we will accept it. We will take out loans in dollars, but not to leverage; rather, we will invest these dollar funds into Solana's DeFi ecosystem and other dollar-denominated strategies.

I believe this operation can yield an annualized return of over 15%. This way, we can convert this arbitrage space into profits for shareholders. I am very much looking forward to this, and this is precisely the advantage that the flexibility of a public company gives us.

The third point we are very excited about is mergers and acquisitions (M&A). Currently, there are about 30 to 40 digital asset vault companies operating in ecosystems like Solana, Ethereum, Bitcoin, Avalanche, and Sui. But in the long run, the likelihood of all these companies surviving is very small.

And we happen to have a "dream team" combination: Multicoin, Galaxy, and Jump. We have deep trading experience, liquidity management experience, market-making experience, balance sheet scale advantages, and some of the most important counterparties in the entire crypto industry. Coupled with Multicoin's position as a leading venture capital firm, bringing these three parties together has already put us in the best position for M&A. With our existing balance sheet, we are fully capable of acquiring other digital asset vault companies, whether they focus on Solana or not.

I believe there is a huge opportunity here to continuously bring higher "SOL per share earnings" to shareholders. These are some of the directions we will focus on in the coming weeks and months.

Mable Jiang: Was the $1.65 billion financing subscription exactly this scale, or was the market demand actually greater than this number?

Kyle Samani: Market demand far exceeded $1.65 billion. We had to exclude many people and reduce some people's allocations to finalize this scale. In this transaction, we were very cautious in our choice of shareholder structure; we want shareholders who not only have a long-term positive outlook on Solana but also those who understand our team background and truly grasp what goals we aim to achieve.

Of course, there are opportunities for financial engineering here, but more importantly, this is also an opportunity to build "next-generation permanent capital tools," which has the potential to become one of the most interesting companies in the world. We are also very fortunate to have selected a group of long-term trusting and supportive shareholders in this transaction.

Mable Jiang: Can you disclose the overall subscription demand scale for this transaction?

Kyle Samani: I’m afraid I can’t say that, but I can tell you that many people were very unhappy because they didn’t get an allocation.

Mable Jiang: That’s understandable. You mentioned an interesting point earlier, saying you would also consider acquiring digital asset vault companies that do not focus solely on Solana. Can you elaborate on that?

Kyle Samani: Actually, the core asset of these digital asset vault companies is their balance sheet; they have almost no intangible assets and not much enterprise value. Frankly speaking, the team strength of most companies is far inferior to ours.

So I expect that in the future, a situation will arise: suppose a company has assets worth $100, and we might trade at a valuation of $140 or $150, while another digital asset vault company, whether related to Solana or not, might only be at $80, $90, or $100.

This valuation gap means there is arbitrage space, which benefits shareholders on both sides. For example, if we complete an acquisition deal at the $110 level (this is just an example), both the acquiring and the acquired shareholders will benefit. I believe the market will soon realize that this is actually the only inevitable outcome.

At the same time, the market will quickly see who the real winners are. This ultimately depends on the team's capital allocation ability, whether they can achieve shareholder-friendly deals, and their execution capability. In these aspects, I am very confident in our positioning.

Mable Jiang: Understood. Now let’s talk about your governance responsibilities as chairman. Specifically, what responsibilities do you need to undertake in your role as chairman? What is the role of an observer?

Kyle Samani: For me, the most important and ongoing work right now is to build a complete management team for this new vault business. It needs to be clarified that Forward Industries' existing core business is still the design business, which will still be managed by CEO Mike Pruitt and will not change.

In addition, the company has added a brand new business line, which is the Solana vault business. This is an independent business line that has almost no synergy with the existing business, so we need a dedicated management team to oversee it. Therefore, we are actively recruiting the core executive team for this new business line, including CEO, CFO, and a range of other positions. If you think you are suitable, we are very willing to discuss these positions with you. Whether it’s research and investment, marketing, operations, finance, or core management (C-Suite), we are looking for any positions needed to run this business. So if you are interested, please be sure to contact us.

Therefore, my most important job as chairman is to help find the right CEO and build this management team. This will certainly take some time. In the meantime, I will work closely with the team at Galaxy Asset Management to guide Forward Industries' vault strategy. Galaxy Asset Management is a department that operates independently within Galaxy; it is a registered investment advisory firm that has a direct fiduciary responsibility to Forward Industries to execute the specific strategies we decide to adopt.

So, I will work with the Galaxy Asset Management team to formulate strategic directions, while the actual execution—whether it’s custody, on-chain trading, off-chain trading, etc.—will be managed and completed by the Galaxy team.

Mable Jiang: So on the observer side, their role is mainly to approve the decisions you make, right?

Kyle Samani: Well, not entirely. According to the asset management contract arrangements, Galaxy Asset Management has a certain degree of discretion in managing the balance sheet. The company’s board and CEO Mike will provide guidance and expectations to Galaxy, which will then formulate an execution plan based on these requirements, communicate with us for confirmation, and execute once an agreement is reached. So it’s more of a "supervision and collaboration" relationship rather than direct command.

Mable Jiang: Understood. So what is the role of the Multicoin team in this?

Kyle Samani: Over the past few weeks, the Multicoin team has indeed provided a lot of help in investment and DeFi strategies. However, as we establish a localized management team for Forward Industries, the involvement of other members from Multicoin is expected to decrease significantly.

Forward's Capital Operations and Earnings Logic

Mable Jiang: You clearly take a very proactive stance in company operations. For some listeners who may not be familiar with PIPE, convertible bonds, or ATM financing methods, can you explain why you chose the PIPE structure?

Kyle Samani: The PIPE structure is actually the easiest way for us to reach a deal with Forward Industries. The other party is very supportive of this structure, and we agree as well. Moreover, PIPE itself is very "lightweight." The entire financing process took only two weeks. Frankly, this is my first time doing this type of transaction, and I didn’t expect it to be completed so quickly, which also reflects the strong market demand for our tool, as we completed $1.65 billion in financing in just two weeks.

Looking ahead, with the PIPE completed, we will also consider other financing methods. We may conduct ATM (At-The-Market) issuances, which is a very straightforward strategy that was pioneered by Michael Saylor. As for other tools, currently, we place the most emphasis on the "perpetual preferred" structure, which is a product launched by Strategy in the last three to four months.

This perpetual preferred stock is interesting; it has a nominal yield higher than convertible bonds, but the principal never needs to be repaid. For a company whose main assets are its balance sheet and has limited cash flow, this is very advantageous. Because if a three-year convertible bond is issued, when it matures in three years and needs refinancing, if interest rates are high or asset prices have dropped significantly, the company could find itself in trouble. However, the perpetual preferred stock has a fixed coupon with no maturity date, which is a significant advantage for companies like Strategy that have almost no cash flow.

What’s even more interesting is that by building our digital asset vault company on Solana, we can obtain two very different types of cash flow. The first type is revenue denominated in SOL, which is the return from staking, very direct, currently yielding about 8% annually. The second type is additional revenue obtained by putting SOL into DeFi. The third type is DeFi revenue denominated in dollars. As I mentioned earlier, we hope to borrow dollars and invest them into Solana's DeFi to achieve higher returns.

Then we can use these returns to pay the coupon. For example, Strategy currently pays a 9% coupon on its perpetual preferred stock. We can achieve about 8% returns through basic SOL staking, and with additional operations, I optimistically believe our overall yield could exceed 9%, even reaching 11%. This way, even if we issue perpetual preferred stock, we can still cover a coupon of over 9%.

Of course, I still don’t know if the market will accept a 9% coupon level; that remains to be seen. Bitcoin is clearly more mature than Solana, but conversely, Bitcoin does not generate any cash flow. So it will be interesting to see how investors in perpetual preferred stock view this risk exposure. However, I can confidently say that given Forward Industries' cash flow structure, we are better positioned than Strategy to manage perpetual preferred stock, convertible bonds, or other debt instruments. Because we can directly access the native yields from Solana and the DeFi ecosystem, which is very exciting.

Mable Jiang: This is what you mentioned in your article, that you believe the structures of convertible bonds and perpetual preferred stock are more suitable for Solana's digital asset vault company. I understand. However, you mentioned a point earlier that I would like to challenge slightly: the native yields of Solana are indeed good, even just from staking, there is a level of 7% to 8%. But for most listeners, they know that the lending market on Solana is not very developed. So, the yields denominated in stablecoins on Solana may not be very strong; where will you find these yields?

Kyle Samani: For example, if you lend funds on Kamino, the current yield is only about 4% to 5%, so you are right; it’s not high. But we believe that the more interesting dollar-denominated yields mainly come from some Vault strategies. For example, JLP and some Drift Vaults managed by teams like Gauntlet, which have yields around 15%, with some even reaching as high as 25%.

Mable Jiang: I noticed that your financing only accepts cash and does not accept any physical tokens. So, who are you purchasing Solana from?

Kyle Samani: That’s correct. The entire $1.65 billion in funds came in cash. We accepted bank wire transfers, USDC, and USDT, but did not accept any form of Solana or other crypto assets, whether circulating or locked Solana, were included in the PIPE. As for how Forward Industries acquires SOL, it is currently done by directly buying it on the open market.

In the future, if there are suitable strategic opportunities, we may also acquire locked SOL. But so far, we have only been buying circulating SOL on the open market.

Mable Jiang: Do you have an expectation for the ratio of locked to circulating SOL?

Kyle Samani: I don’t have a specific expectation. The only reference I can provide is that I don’t believe a large portion of the company’s balance sheet will be allocated to illiquid assets.

Mable Jiang: The so-called locked SOL in the market mainly refers to the portion sold by the foundation in the past, right?

Kyle Samani: Currently, there are indeed only two types of locked SOL that can be purchased. One type comes from transactions with the Solana Foundation, and the other is from individuals who initially purchased locked SOL from the FTX bankruptcy assets. These are the only two main sources left. We are certainly actively evaluating these two channels.

Solana Vault and the Vision of Internet Capital Markets

Mable Jiang: Well. Let’s talk about on-chain investment opportunities. Besides Solana's native yields, such as those related to MEV, what other directions are you focusing on?

Kyle Samani: Yes. In fact, there are a large number of excellent DeFi teams on Solana. For example, Gito, Sanctum, Kamino, Drift, Exponent, Dflow, Jupiter, etc. Many teams provide both SOL-denominated opportunities and dollar-denominated opportunities. We will deploy the funds from the company’s balance sheet into these strategies denominated in SOL and dollars.

Mable Jiang: In the auditing process, will there be an independent procedure to review smart contracts? Or will you simply rely on the audit results already published by the teams?

Kyle Samani: We will definitely have a strict process to review contracts before funds are deployed. I can tell you that the process used by Forward Industries combines the independent risk control and review systems of Jump, Galaxy, and Multicoin. In other words, we can draw on the strengths of the existing experiences from these three firms and incorporate their insights on risk management and contract review to develop a more comprehensive and precise set of rules and guidelines.

Mable Jiang: So, making Forward Industries' assets into on-chain tokenized collateral will be one of your priorities?

Kyle Samani: Yes. I want to answer this question from a broader perspective, Mable. Clearly, we have the opportunity to bring additional SOL earnings per share to shareholders. But I believe that if this is the only reason, it is not enough to justify the amount of time and effort we are putting into pushing this project forward. As everyone knows, I am one of the earliest seed investors in Solana, and I have maintained a very close relationship with Solana from day one and have been a steadfast supporter of Solana over the years.

I believe the most important thing Forward Industries is doing is proving that a U.S. publicly listed company can achieve "native on-chain" operations. This includes not only operations at the capital market level, such as tokenizing the company's equity into on-chain stocks; it also includes on-chain fundraising, on-chain dividends, and on-chain shareholder governance. In other words, everything you can do on Nasdaq, we hope to accomplish on Solana in the future, and we are willing to be pioneers in doing these things.

In terms of daily operations, we also hope that all matters can be completed on-chain. This means on-chain transactions, on-chain revenues, on-chain payroll, on-chain payments to suppliers, and so on. Although these cannot be fully realized today, this is our vision.

Of course, many of these things depend on the support of service providers, such as custodians, transfer agents, and other relevant institutions. But fortunately, with our scale, size, brand, and connections, we have the ability to pressure these service providers to unlock new features. This way, we can prove to the world that a publicly listed company can indeed move all these processes natively on-chain. Our goal is also to make it easier for the next company, and the one after that, to accomplish the same thing on-chain after we pave the way.

Mable Jiang: By the way, I have a question I forgot to ask earlier, which Yano also mentioned. The funds committed by this fund will not be used to purchase Solana from Galaxy or Multicoin, right?

Kyle Samani: That's correct. Forward Industries will never directly purchase SOL from Multicoin, Galaxy, or Jump, whether circulating or locked.

Mable Jiang: Understood. Based on this, will you consider operating your own validation nodes?

Kyle Samani: Yes, we are currently preparing our own validation nodes and expect to announce relevant news soon.

Mable Jiang: What do you think about Solana's native yields? I know Tushar and Vishal pushed for SIMD228, trying to adjust the yield distribution mechanism. What are your thoughts on that?

Kyle Samani: Earlier this year, Multicoin Capital, where I work, submitted a formal governance proposal for the Solana network, called SIMD228. This proposal aimed to reduce the inflation level of the Solana network and implement programmatic and dynamic adjustments based on several on-chain variables.

This was a very controversial proposal and ultimately did not pass. The governance vote required 66% support to pass, but it ended up with about 62%, very close, but still failed. Looking back, I have a few reflections:

First, I am glad to have gone through this process, as it gave me more insight into the different stakeholders in the Solana community;

Second, the entire discussion was very valuable;

Third, I later changed my stance. At the time of voting, I supported SIMD228, but now as the chairman of Forward Industries, I believe SIMD228 is not the optimal choice for the Solana network.

The reason is that many people are actually more concerned about nominal yields, and SIMD228 would reduce nominal yields. One thing I’ve learned in life is that you must first understand the rules of the game you are participating in, and then find the optimal solution within that framework. There is always a balance between ideals and reality, and I can now better appreciate the real logic of the game I am in.

Mable Jiang: This was actually Lily's point at the time; she said Solana is still in a rapid growth phase and needs high yields to attract people.

Kyle Samani: Yes, coincidentally, I met Lily in person last week. I hugged her and said, "Lily, you were right."

Mable Jiang: Interesting, I’m glad I brought up this topic. I didn’t know you had changed your mind. This is important because it will indeed affect Forward Industries' strategy and direction.

Kyle Samani: That's right.

Mable Jiang: Great. I had a private conversation with Tushar about DAT; he mentioned (about two months ago) that you all thought the hype around DAT would pass, but soon after, you announced new actions. So I guess there must have been some internal discussions. How did you change your mind?

Kyle Samani: Actually, just two months ago, my view on DAT was mainly based on observations of Bitcoin DAT. And Bitcoin DAT itself has no cash flow and cannot access the native DeFi ecosystem.

Another important reason that made me change my mind was a speech given by SEC Chairman Paul Atkins on July 31, titled Project Crypto. In his speech, he clearly stated, "We need to move the U.S. securities market on-chain."

As I reflected more on this speech, I realized that as the chairman of a publicly listed company, one of the most important things I can do is to help Chairman Atkins realize his vision. Although I didn’t realize this within five minutes of reading the speech (ideally, I wish I could have grasped it immediately), I eventually came to understand. This made me realize that we really have the opportunity to turn the future "will" into reality because the SEC chairman has told us that this is exactly what needs to be done.

Mable Jiang: That makes sense, and I think it leads to my next question. I saw Mike Novogratz mention in an interview with CNBC that Solana can support more transactions, including stocks, fixed income, commodities, and network transactions. So, does Solana now have the infrastructure to settle global securities transactions?

Kyle Samani: I was fortunate to meet Anatoly and Raj early on and led their seed round investment in 2018. You could say they had a clear "North Star" goal from the beginning. Initially, Solana's North Star vision was referred to as "decentralized Nasdaq." However, over time, this vision has evolved in branding.

The current version, we call it "internet capital markets." It essentially continues the same core idea but expresses it in a more forward-looking way rather than looking back. The term "decentralized Nasdaq" carries a strong "looking back" connotation, referencing a company that has existed for 50 years; whereas "internet capital markets" is a future-oriented vision with idealistic colors.

In this process, we realized that Solana can handle over 10 billion transactions daily today. If you look at the daily transaction numbers of major regulated financial exchanges globally, you will find that they are far below this scale.

Of course, market makers will post a large number of limit orders and cancel them; here I am referring to the actual transaction numbers after excluding canceled orders. If you look at the daily transaction numbers of major global markets like the New York Stock Exchange (NYSE), Nasdaq (NASDAQ), Chicago Mercantile Exchange (CME), London Stock Exchange (LSE), Singapore Exchange, etc., the total is also less than 10 billion. This fact suddenly made us realize: wait, even though Solana still has various flaws and issues that need to be fixed today, it is already capable of settling all global securities transactions. This is a shocking discovery and highlights the tremendous opportunity ahead.

So, when we talk about the future of internet capital markets and what scale we need to expand to, we are particularly excited. Because this means Solana has the potential to become a global trading engine, not just for securities, but also for commodities, foreign exchange, and even more other assets.

Mable Jiang: You just mentioned that the total transactions of all traditional financial markets add up to less than 10 billion daily. Does this mean that almost everything can be traded on Solana? Not just stocks or equities, but also commodities, etc.?

Kyle Samani: That's right, this is the vision of internet capital markets—to build a globally unified system that is permissionless and operates year-round. Anyone, with just a mobile phone and an internet connection, can trade any asset through any software.

When you describe it this way, it is actually a very intuitive and simple concept. For internet natives, this is almost the way the future world operates. But today’s financial system does not operate this way at all—there is no financial market that operates this way, except for cryptocurrencies. Even in the crypto space, we are still far from this ideal.

Once you see such a future, you can never "unsee" it. I am very optimistic that one day, the global financial infrastructure will operate on top of internet capital markets.

How to view new phenomena in the crypto space, such as content coins and Pump live streams?

Mable Jiang: You seemed to be not particularly optimistic about "long-tail asset trading" before?

Kyle Samani: No, actually quite the opposite; long-tail assets are precisely the fundamental driving force behind the development of capital markets to where they are today. For example, I certainly wouldn’t call Bitcoin a long-tail asset now, but 10 years ago, Bitcoin was a typical long-tail asset. Seven years ago, Ethereum was also a long-tail asset. Solana now has a market cap exceeding $100 billion, and I wouldn’t call it a long-tail asset anymore.

But the fact is that people create 10,000, 20,000, or even 30,000, 40,000 new assets daily on the Solana chain. So yes, it is these long-tail assets that have brought us to today, and this trend is clearly not going to stop. People will continue to enjoy the fun of inventing new assets. But the real, real, real big opportunity lies in moving those traditional assets that people already want to trade—securities, commodities, foreign exchange, derivatives, etc.—onto Solana for trading.

Mable Jiang: The reason I had that impression is that I remember we talked about "content coins" in May, and at that time, you seemed to disagree with that argument.

Kyle Samani: That's right. Based on my current understanding, I am still quite skeptical about content coins overall. Of course, there are many design forms for content coins, so it may be that my view is too one-sided.

My biggest concern about content coins is that any specific piece of content itself has a strong timeliness and ephemerality, making it difficult to maintain value over the long term. I tend to believe that if a token is to be issued that is tied to a creator's work or output, it is better to tie it to something that can reflect long-term value, rather than just a momentary piece of content.

Mable Jiang: Understood. In fact, you wrote a post in July where you mentioned that you believe neither Zora nor Pump has resolved the "intrinsic conflict between trading and entertainment."

Kyle Samani: Yes, let’s take a step back. I believe "entertainment finance" is a very clever and wonderful concept; it has great psychological power. The concept of entertainment is very intuitive—whether you like comedy or drama, "entertainment" is easy to understand. And finance also has a large audience; the opportunity to make money is inherently exciting. Not everyone likes risk, but for those who are passionate about risk, finance is clearly attractive.

Therefore, for a considerable portion of the population, entertainment finance is highly attractive. In my view, the earliest form of "entertainment finance" in human history is actually Jim Cramer. I think he is the 1.0 version of entertainment finance. Of course, I know many crypto enthusiasts might laugh at him; I used to laugh at him too.

But I have gradually learned to appreciate him because he was the first to create this model. And now we are in the early stages of entertainment finance 2.0. Entertainment finance 2.0 is more like Roaring Kitty (the person behind GameStop) or Dave Portnoy. You might remember him holding a green hammer, with a YouTube show called "Davey Day Trader Global" almost every day. Today, on platforms like Pump, thousands of people are live streaming every day.

The core service they provide is essentially entertainment finance. I believe this direction is about to explode. I would also draw a parallel to sports, especially sports betting. If you ask those who love to bet why they enjoy it, they would say: I love football, and I also love financial risk. Combining these two things feels very natural.

Moreover, it has a clear binary outcome that can be revealed within one or two hours. This mechanism makes it very easy to become addicted. So going back to your question, platforms like Zora and Pump are essentially trying to create entertainment finance 2.0 and 3.0. The core service they provide is indeed entertainment finance. In my view, some form of live streaming is very likely to become the breakthrough point for entertainment finance 2.0.

This past weekend, Pump indeed had its highlight moment, but whether it can be sustained is still uncertain. I don't have a particularly strong judgment on this. It certainly has potential and is exciting, but it is still too early. However, I do believe that live streaming is a key component because it brings the streamer and the audience together. That unpredictable, heart-stirring, genuine, and raw feeling cannot be replaced by taking seven or eight carefully selected photos and applying filters. That kind of thing is more like Instagram—very polished but not real enough.

So I think this "sense of authenticity" is important. Overall, I tend to remain optimistic about the direction of live streaming.

As the chairman of Forward, I will try many ideas like this. Forward's mission is to be at the forefront of internet capital markets, and I believe live streaming is an indispensable part of that. I will also view sports betting from a similar perspective—it makes sports more exciting and attractive, which is at the core of "entertainment finance."

Mable Jiang: So what is your best vision for Pump? Because I feel you are quite excited about Pump.

Kyle Samani: I have always been known for my "analogical reasoning," so I will use an analogy to answer your question. I believe Pump's bull market vision is: a tokenized TikTok, or a tokenized Twitch, or a combination of both.

Mable Jiang: TikTok does sound a bit sexier. The co-founder of Pump has recently given quite a few interviews; I heard one with him and Laura Shin where he clearly stated that prediction markets would not succeed and would not capture a major market share in this model. What do you think? What are your views on Kalshi and Polymarket?

Kyle Samani: I agree with that statement. However, Multicoin is actually an investor in Kalshi. I was skeptical about prediction markets for a long time, but I did a 180-degree turn earlier this year. I was fortunate to meet Kalshi's two founders, Tarek and Luana, who are truly excellent entrepreneurs. I remember one of the founders of Pump, I can't recall if it was Alon or Noah, made that statement.

I think it was Noah. But I feel that statement implies a kind of "either-or" exclusivity, which I do not agree with. I believe they can coexist. There are a lot of people in the market, especially those with money who want to make large trades.

They tend to take risks or hedge risks in a very objective way. The psychological characteristics of this group are completely different from those who interact with streamers and place bets in the live chat.

So I do not agree with comparing the two. They correspond to two entirely different psychological profiles and serve completely different functions. Of course, in certain scenarios, they can combine. For example, can the streamer jump over a bar? Can they win a game? Can they complete an obstacle course in five minutes? These are examples of how prediction markets and live streaming can combine.

But when I think of prediction markets, I think more of questions like: Will the Federal Reserve lower interest rates? Who will die in the next season of "The White Lotus"? These larger questions truly belong to the realm of prediction markets.

Mable Jiang: Some things are deterministic, while some people pursue huge returns. Of course, prediction markets won't give you that kind of permanent yield.

Kyle Samani: What I mean is that if you want to make money on something like Pump, there are actually many ways to do it. There are indeed common elements like speed, analytical ability, and some quantitative aspects. But another part is "insight"—can you see a meme in the live stream and have a very intuitive understanding of the current culture and society, sensing what is happening? Maybe AI will achieve this in the future; theoretically, the masters of AI could reach this level of judgment, but assuming they haven't yet, that judgment is always very subjective. Questions like "Will the Federal Reserve lower interest rates on Thursday?" have no subjective component. I think these are two completely different audiences.

Mable Jiang: Hmm, I agree. This is how the internet feeling is manifested on Pump. Let me change the topic: can you talk about some mistakes you've made over the past three years? Can you share a few?

Kyle Samani: We have made many mistakes. I have talked about this with many people. I met Kalshi's founder Tarek at the Republican National Convention in Milwaukee in July 2024. I remember talking to him and saying, "Dude, how are you going to compete with Polymarket? You have so many regulatory issues to deal with; it will slow you down."

He said, "You don't understand; I have my vision." At that moment, I thought, "Okay, suit yourself." Then I didn't really stop to listen to his vision—that was my mistake. Later, I met an absolutely A+ entrepreneur who was working on something related to prediction markets, directly or indirectly related to crypto, and clearly, it was in the financial sector. I also didn't delve into how much regulatory work they had already done at that time. A few months later, I met Tarek again and made the same mistake.

It wasn't until the third meeting that I realized: wait, this person is interesting. But the problem was that I didn't act quickly enough. That was one of the most serious mistakes I made in Multicoin's history—failing to act quickly enough after meeting Tarek.

Mable Jiang: Wow, that's a heavy self-assessment. Do you feel the same way about Ethena?

Kyle Samani: You know, the story with Guy is quite interesting. Guy is undoubtedly one of the best founders in the DeFi space right now. I have gradually become familiar with him, and I am also advising their new project, with Multicoin holding some ENA. Going back to the seed round of Ethena, about three or four years ago, we were actually on the schedule.

At that time, Vinny contacted us and said we would have a meeting on Monday. But before that, he met with Dragonfly on Friday, and the people from Dragonfly gave him a term sheet that day. According to Guy, that offer was so good that he couldn't refuse, so he signed it before we had our call.

So, I can't really say whether this counts as my mistake; was it me messing up, or was it just bad luck? But to be fair, I have to admit that the people at Dragonfly did a great job. Ethena is clearly a great success now, and Guy is outstanding. I am glad to be on the Ethena train now, just wish I could have boarded a bit earlier.

Mable Jiang: Of course. I asked about Ethena because I know Multicoin has always had an investment logic for algorithmic stablecoins. We also thought that this logic would eventually come true; it just depended on who would do it. So I find this quite interesting.

Kyle Samani: Exactly, once again, hats off to Dragonfly. They saw the opportunity and identified the founder, and it paid off.

Mable Jiang: What do you think have been the best decisions over the past three years?

Kyle Samani: An obvious one is sticking to being bullish on Solana during the FTX crisis. That period was really brutal; there was almost nothing that could compare. Another is choosing to stay in the game. My thinking is simple: the mission is not yet complete.

Mable Jiang: The toughest moments.

Kyle Samani: Yes, I now clearly recognize that blockchains like Solana have the opportunity to drive internet capital markets, replacing the global financial and payment systems. This entire transformation will be a generational project on a global scale.

I am very excited about Solana; there is no doubt that I believe it will prevail. But clearly, the mission is far from complete; we are still quite far from it. So, "the mission is not complete," and I will stay to see it through.

Mable Jiang: What about the other members of the Multicoin team? What new challenges and areas are you exploring now?

Kyle Samani: We are starting to expand into some fringe areas. Recently, we made a significant investment in a quantum computing company, and we are also researching some AI-related projects, as well as investing in telecommunications projects. We believe that telecommunications will eventually re-integrate with crypto, but that is still undecided.

So we continue to focus on entrepreneurs who dare to tackle huge and difficult problems. Of course, we are still a very "crypto-native" fund, but if we see attractive opportunities, even if they are not directly related to crypto, we will participate. I think we are now probably making a few such investments each year.

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