Original｜Odaily Planet Daily (@OdailyChina)
At the beginning of the new year, the PENGU token has been online for over a month, and the Abstract mainnet has just launched. As a crypto media outlet closely following Pudgy Penguins, the Abstract ecosystem, and its parent company Igloo.Inc, Odaily Planet Daily conducted an in-depth interview with Pudgy Penguins CEO Luca Netz to discuss topics such as the PENGU token, the Abstract ecosystem, the competitive landscape of L1 & L2 networks, and the vision dispute between Ethereum and Solana, aiming to gain more insights into the crypto industry from Luca's perspective.
The following is a transcript of this interview, with some content edited for brevity, for readers' reference.
Note: The questioners are Odaily Planet Daily CEO Mandy and Odaily Planet Daily reporter Wenser, while the respondent is Pudgy Penguins CEO Luca Netz. The interview took place on January 31, 2025.
Odaily Planet Daily Interview Excerpt Video
Q1: After the launch of PENGU, has the focus of Pudgy Penguins and its parent company Igloo.Inc changed?
Luca: Yes, changes are happening. Although everyone in the crypto industry (especially those who received the PENGU token airdrop) knows about Pudgy Penguins, many still do not understand what special significance we have in the crypto industry and what vision we ultimately want to achieve.
So, our focus has shifted to—“How do we impress new community members and the entire crypto world and show them our capabilities?” In other words, there is a lot we need to do, such as making hundreds of thousands of new community members aware of what we are doing and showcasing our ideas to them. Of course, everyone will soon see our follow-up actions.
Luca appeared during the launch of the PENGU token
Q2: The Abstract mainnet has just launched; are the data and metrics meeting expectations? Can you share about the future development and key layouts of the ecosystem?
Luca: In simple terms, what we want to do in the Abstract ecosystem is to make it “the most interesting place in the crypto world” and “provide a crypto-friendly experience from 0 to 1.” If you log into the Abstract network and experience the current mainnet, we have already achieved this in stages.
The Abstract ecosystem allows third-party integrations and enables users to join in their preferred ways. Unlike other on-chain ecosystems where users can only join through specific processes and methods, our user experience process is more open and flexible; if users do not like certain fixed processes, they can skip them.
Moreover, in about 3-4 weeks, the Abstract ecosystem will spark widespread discussion in the crypto field: we have many integration collaborations and plugins that will bring significant liquidity, trading volume, and TVL here. It is worth mentioning that we have not optimized for this; instead, we are optimizing for a better experience for users and their family and friends. If they log into the abs.xyz official website, they will have a good user experience.
At that time, a very hot and active on-chain ecosystem will be presented to the public, and whether in L1 or L2 network competition, Abstract is confident it will stand out.
When others choose to go left, we choose to go right—this is the story of Pudgy Penguins and Igloo. Once everything is ready, people will look back at this moment and be surprised to find, “The Pudgy Penguins team had such foresight.”
Odaily Planet Daily: Can you reveal a bit about the "big event" in 3-4 weeks?
Sure, first, we expect a large number of Web2 live streamers to enter the Abstract ecosystem; secondly, an ecosystem composed of 40-50 active funds will gradually emerge. Finally, I look forward to integrating with MetaMask or allowing voluntary access to the Abstract ecosystem and more third-party project integrations in the way users prefer.
Odaily Planet Daily: We noticed that the current UI design of the Abstract mainnet is very Web2, and the interaction experience is very smooth. Was this intentional?
Yes, because if our goal is to drive consumer adoption, this is necessary. Over the past five years, many projects have built their on-chain ecosystems in the same way, choosing to go left; we chose the opposite path—we want to capture those newcomers who have not yet entered the on-chain world. Although this may make the current on-chain community a bit uncomfortable, if we tell those users that they need several hours to piece together fragmented information to figure out how to conduct on-chain transactions on Ethereum; now, they can log into abs.xyz and master on-chain transaction operations in 20 minutes.
We have adopted a method that no one has tried before to bring millions of new groups into the on-chain world.
Q3: This was also the original purpose of NFTs, but the overall vitality of the NFT market in this cycle is poor. How do you view the future development direction of the entire NFT industry? OpenSea recently launched a 2.0 points system, and many people are looking forward to OpenSea's future token and airdrop. What changes will this bring to the NFT industry?
Luca: I believe that unless a minimum royalty system is adopted, it will be difficult for the NFT industry to recover.
What truly makes NFTs great is the act of “minting.” Currently, the survival environment for top blue-chip NFT projects is still acceptable, such as Pudgy Penguins, Doodles, BAYC, Azuki, Milady, CryptoPunks, etc., we are still at the table, right? If we had failed, we might have disappeared long ago.
So, people just choose to self-identify with a certain tribe or community and express their views. Therefore, if we want to revive NFTs, low royalties are essential. Compared to other tracks in cryptocurrency, the most interesting and competitive part of NFTs is its “minting” and “revealing.” The question then becomes: if project teams have no other income after minting NFTs, they have no motivation to launch a new project. This is a significant barrier that prevents many people from engaging with NFTs. This is also why many choose to launch a token on pump.fun; this is the essence of competition as I see it. We must respect the will of the majority.
Many leading projects in the market have their own views on achieving success, but clearly, they have not considered the needs of more people. Of course, I respect those who bravely make attempts. However, in the past, many have built protocols and blockchain ecosystems, often starting from an NFT project to expand their community core, rather than starting from core products (like blockchain, exchanges, or related matters). So, this is the direction we have chosen.
Odaily Planet Daily: Will OpenSea's token bring changes to the NFT industry?
Luca: Undoubtedly, it will not.
Q4: You have previously positioned PENGU as a meme coin multiple times, so can you share some future plans for PENGU, such as staking, buybacks, burns, and other use cases?
Luca: To be honest, we have hidden quite a few things regarding PENGU. The reason for positioning PENGU as a meme coin is that meme coins feel more fun and do not require much consideration of competition.
In terms of meme coin market capitalization, PENGU currently ranks 12th (this data is from the time of the interview. According to Coingecko data, as of the time of writing, PENGU ranks 9th in meme coins and 117th in cryptocurrency market capitalization).
PENGU token market cap ranks 9th in the meme coin sector.
Meanwhile, Pudgy Penguins-related memes receive hundreds of millions of views daily; millions of Pudgy Penguins-related physical toy products have entered millions of households, a feat that no other meme has achieved. Pudgy Penguins can be said to be the cutest and most widely used crypto-native image in the past few years, resonating with people from Asia, North America, Europe, and even around the world. It is a completely original meme that will not fade away and has been continuously tested, which is rare.
Pudgy Penguins-related meme views have surpassed 40 billion
In summary, from any perspective, in terms of importance and popularity, the status of Pudgy Penguins and PENGU is not limited to being the 12th meme coin; I personally believe it should at least rank in the top three.
At the same time, meme coins that do nothing will gradually be eliminated; it is unrealistic to expect change while waiting. We can see that Trump has already changed the game—he launched his official meme coin, and many will follow suit, with a lot of hot money gradually gathering here. However, it is a huge mistake for meme coins to expect victory without taking action.
How we view Pudgy Penguins and the PENGU token is crucial; we see it as a "Meme Coin++" version of a token.
You must build a brand; you must create more demand around the IP; you must break barriers and boundaries; you must become more popular; you must become more infectious and shareable; you must become a cultural phenomenon.
How to achieve this?
Through games, movies, TV shows, content, social media, memes, gifts, toys, statues, and collaborations with well-known brands, embed yourself into the culture. You must consider everything; otherwise, it will be difficult to become the ultimate winner.
Secondly, a continuously deflationary token economic model and a more compelling narrative are essential. It is well known that PENGU is issued in the United States, which is quite eye-catching. But how do people view the tokenomics of PENGU, understand the supply and demand relationship of the token, and how to reduce the token supply?
We have many preparations and will gradually reveal them in the coming months. To be honest, the operation of BONK and BONKbot has greatly inspired me. If some projects are not good at doing this, they should improve in a timely manner; otherwise, we will take their place.
The days when a successful meme coin could be built with just an animal picture and a so-called strong community are long gone. Because Trump and TRUMP have opened Pandora's box in an unavoidable way—past animal meme coins cannot withstand the test of time and remain unscathed under the influx of hot money and new phenomena. Every week, or every few days, you must actively respond, destroy tokens, and get out of difficulties; you must remain competitive while pushing the industry forward. Otherwise, the next outcome will not be good.
Thus, the reason for viewing PENGU as a meme coin is that its technical architecture determines its meme coin attributes; it has a penguin image with strong meme attributes in its token symbol; it has been distributed to countless holders; its related elements have been embedded into cultural phenomena.
The reason we consider it a Plus version of a meme coin is that we plan to promote and sell it in the world's largest retail chains; to feature it on the big screen in movies; to include it in a novel; to present it in the form of games on the App Store and countless online desktops.
We will also bring more unprecedented well-known partners in the crypto field; we must do this.
Sometimes, I also ask myself: how can we destroy some PENGU tokens and let it stand out in the market?
As long as we accomplish the above tasks, a positive "success flywheel" will be generated. This is our thought process. The 12th position of PENGU in the meme coin category is clearly unsatisfactory to us, and many will have objections to this. On the other hand, if PENGU becomes part of content in forms like movies and games, just like the achievements we have gained in the NFT field, we will also completely transform the meme coin space.
Q5: Will the PENGU token have more connections or collaborations with Pudgy Penguins and Abstract in the future? Will Abstract issue its own token later?
Luca: On this matter, I have received some messages and feel that many have misunderstood it over the past period. I have provided a lot of explanations to members of the Western community and have also tried to inform partners in the Eastern community about the corresponding information.
(Odaily Note: Previously, Pudgy Penguins officially stated that the PENGU token would be linked to Abstract, leading to market speculation that it would become the token of the Abstract chain, but they actually have no such plans.)
We are doing some things for the PENGU token community, and there will be more surprises to come, although not everyone may look forward to it. We have been working on this, including bringing more community members to join us and creating more value for PENGU holders.
However, human resources can sometimes be limited, and much information still remains within a certain range. We may have reached 10,000 people, but there may be 1 million PENGU token holders, and many times we may have entered an information bubble.
So, the current consensus is that my job is to integrate resources as much as possible, but doing one integration does not mean we only need to do that. Just like in the past few years, we have been integrating resources centered around Pudgy Penguins, continuously iterating and updating. However, we have not integrated the Abstract ecosystem through multiplier points or soft staking and bridged liquidity here; the operation method here is not like that, and its starting and ending points are unrelated to this.
This is built for practical use cases; it is just a case, not a special right or benefit. In this regard, we must ensure that all information comes from official channels and is clear and accurate, even a simple tweet must achieve this. Therefore, the release of information regarding PENGU, Abstract, and related matters is part of our work, not all of it.
As for Abstract's token, as competition deepens, I believe it will undoubtedly have its corresponding token. But this will take some time.
Regarding how PENGU will be integrated, I can only say that I am very much looking forward to it, and the community will feel excited; there may be amazing convergence, but the primary goal right now is not this, but how we have a large number of brand partnerships and how to showcase them to the world.
In the coming weeks, our focus will be on highlighting the competitiveness of the Abstract ecosystem.
The future of Pudgy Penguins is vast and bright.
Q6: What do you think about "Trump's official meme coin TRUMP token launch"? Do you personally have any investments in it?
Luca: I know the people behind this project; I am quite familiar with them, and we have known each other for many years, even before I entered the crypto industry. But I did not receive insider information and buy in early. I just made a small trade. When I saw the TRUMP token, its FDV was already $5 billion. So I bought $50,000 and sold it shortly after.
I had the opportunity to make a big profit, but I didn't. Because at that time, I felt it was too expensive, especially since its FDV really looked too high, plus Trump had some smaller market cap crypto projects before. My logic was to compare TRUMP to DJT stocks, which also have a market cap of about $5 billion. (Odaily Planet Daily: Although 80% of TRUMP tokens are locked.) Yes, that was an obvious erroneous comparison.
Q7: Trump chose Solana for his meme launch, which intensified the discussion between Ethereum and Solana. You also chose to launch your token on Solana. In a previous interview, you mentioned that "Solana has proven itself to be a Consumer Chain." Can you explain the difference between a "Consumer Chain" and a "Financial Chain"; and looking back at this choice now, does it meet expectations?
Luca: Yes, for us, choosing Solana as the token launch ecosystem was the right decision. Solana is leading in guiding new users, and it can even be said that no other ecosystem does it better than Solana. We also hope that Abstract can achieve the results that the Solana ecosystem has reached within the EVM ecosystem. From our perspective, the Solana ecosystem focuses on user experience, which the Ethereum ecosystem has not achieved, and this reflects the different goals of the two.
Specifically, the Ethereum ecosystem is striving to become a decentralized network nation, and the realization of this vision is crucial for every individual; on the other hand, Solana is working hard to build the best and more performant blockchain ecosystem, and they are doing everything they can to achieve competitive victory.
Thus, they have different visions: Ethereum is committed to becoming an important, decentralized, and censorship-resistant ecosystem; Solana, on the other hand, is trying to expand the boundaries of blockchain capabilities and continuously present and iterate new things. The latter undoubtedly emphasizes organizational leadership, with a more top-down execution, clear directives, and strict enforcement. So, this represents "two cultures, two visions."
As a result, it is difficult to compare the two outside the blockchain ecosystem; in this regard, they seem more like indirect competitors rather than direct enemies, as their missions are fundamentally different.
Mandy: Yes, with the launches of PENGU and TRUMP tokens, the Solana network is under tremendous traffic pressure, yet it has successfully withstood test after test. If it were any other blockchain network facing the same situation, the likelihood of network paralysis would be very high. No blockchain network's DEX trading volume has ever reached $30 billion in a single day.
Q8: Abstract contributor cygaar previously had a conversation on X with Ethereum Foundation team member joshrudolf.eth, expressing that there is insufficient contact with EF and projects on the Ethereum chain, and EF members also admitted that there is room for improvement in their work. Vitalik has previously suggested restructuring the EF leadership, which has sparked much controversy. What are your thoughts on all this? How do you view the relationship between L1 and L2? Has the EF team been in touch with you recently?
Luca: No, the Ethereum Foundation has never communicated with me.
Although I would personally be very willing to communicate with EF. Based on the achievements Pudgy Penguins has made in the Ethereum ecosystem over the past few years, Pudgy Penguins can even be considered one of the best projects in the Ethereum ecosystem, but they have indeed never reached out to me.
To be honest, as an entrepreneur, this feeling is not particularly good. In contrast, after entering the Solana ecosystem, if I want to, I can communicate with Solana co-founders Toly and Raj anytime, anywhere. I have previously discussed this issue privately with my mentors and friends.
The conclusion is that Ethereum was not born for this (as we mentioned earlier, its mission and vision is a network nation); while Solana's mission is. Ethereum's vision is not to reach out to builders and cultivate them, even though these builders are the greatest driving force behind the greatness of this ecosystem. I personally do not agree with this approach, but, you know, Ethereum's mission is above all; its goal is to be a censorship-resistant resilient blockchain network, even if no one uses it, it still serves this purpose.
It does not exist to cater to me. Although, I believe that if they could make efforts in this regard, Ethereum would be more successful in terms of price.
Just as the TRUMP meme coin has boosted the development of the Solana ecosystem and the rise in SOL prices, just as a few years ago, we should not underestimate how NFT hype drove Ethereum prices to soar—the NFT bull market brought ETH to its historical peak price. Today, not many people are flocking to Ethereum to trade NFTs because there is nothing prepared for the average person. This is why Solana has achieved what it has today; while the Ethereum ecosystem was still indifferent to NFT projects that had been built for years just a month ago. When I placed Pudgy Penguins-related physical toys on the shelves of Walmart, I still found it difficult to gain any form of recognition from these people. I have to say, this feeling is terrible.
Because I am contributing value to a network that does not value my contributions, but as I realized after communicating with my mentors: there is nothing to complain about because the Ethereum ecosystem is not focused on this.
Communication with the top figures of Solana is much smoother, which is why I believe Solana has reached its peak today. Until this situation changes, the Ethereum ecosystem may still face difficulties; this is not even an exception in the NFT space, as people from the Ethereum Foundation have even severely underestimated the value of DeFi, which is truly crazy. Although historically, NFTs came before DeFi. So, I think they may be turning a new page and understanding the importance of DeFi and NFTs.
Of course, the reality is that the EF developers are not a team familiar with business operations, nor is that their function. So, I understand them, and I have great respect for all of them. After all, they are the cornerstone of the Ethereum ecosystem.
Q9: How do you view competition at the blockchain network ecosystem level? With so many L1 and L2 networks now, how do you define and establish your core competitiveness?
Luca: I believe there are currently only four blockchain networks with high competitiveness and a tangible vision and adoption, including ETH, Solana, Base, and SUI (perhaps SUI will receive more recognition than many expect, even though many may overlook it, it indeed belongs on this list).
Because I do know that some things are happening in the SUI ecosystem. To be honest, it is really difficult to judge and filter. Networks like ZKSync, Arbitrum, Optimism, etc., are more like superchains or elastic chains or other core layers, rather than true blockchain network ecosystems, from my personal perspective.
Because these networks prefer others to build L2 and L3 networks based on their technology stack rather than becoming the central destination for everyone to flock to; they do not care about consumer adoption rates but are more concerned with collaborating with projects like Azuki or Pudgy Penguins, which then drive consumer adoption.
In simple terms, they do not care about individual users, whether they are your family or friends; they just want to be the center of their ecosystem. So this is a completely different business model.
Among these four, Ethereum remains true to its mission; Solana, Base, and SUI may be in the same competitive position, ranking first, second, and third. The issue among them is that Base may not have a unique advantage that distinguishes it from Solana, and it even lacks competitiveness within the EVM system, while the territory of the EVM system is also shrinking.
This is what Abstract aims to do, to confront Base and other networks directly, but our user interface and user experience have certain differentiations. Interface innovation is the direction Abstract is striving for, and it is also our means of achieving victory in terms of user experience, branding, community, and so on.
Additionally, it remains to be seen that Base cannot just do generic things similar to the Solana ecosystem; if you adopt a follow-the-leader strategy, then Base, as an Ethereum network expansion ecosystem, will fail in this capital competition. The capital of Ethereum is not equivalent to the capital of Base; you must have something distinctive.
Of course, it must be acknowledged that the Base ecosystem team is indeed impressive, especially after experiencing the past few months of building the Abstract network; I can better appreciate how incredible their work is as they continuously launch amazing products. So we have learned a lot by standing on their shoulders, and I hope the above words can serve as a supplementary perspective for their reference.
So what is the most challenging aspect of building a blockchain network? Especially the part that surprised you?
So far, the most difficult part should be ecosystem management. We should and could have done better on the launch day of Abstract. Intuitively, we have about 120 excellent applications that could be embedded in the EVM architecture, but for various reasons, only 5 applications were ready on launch day. As is well known, a blockchain network has too many things to do. But this issue is also easily solvable because we have various communication channels, so what we need to do now is to push each channel to progress gradually. This is essentially a management and operational issue, especially needing to treat all builders equally.
Q10: AI is undoubtedly the hottest topic right now. Have you considered integrating AI technology or exploring other emerging fields? What specific directions are currently in preparation?
Luca: We have prepared some AI-related initiatives for the PENGU ecosystem and the Pudgy Penguins ecosystem. We are about to deploy an AI project on the Abstract network with a senior person from the AI industry; she is from Japan and is a friend of mine, who has been deeply involved in the Web2 field for many years as a digital avatar, with 4 years of experience in AI digital human production, and is a pioneer in this industry. She has had deep collaborations with LV and Balenciaga, and her digital avatar has appeared as a supermodel.
Subsequently, she will launch a new AI project and corresponding token on Abstract. I believe this will be the hottest token in the Abstract ecosystem to date, and I am looking forward to her project and products. So, without a doubt, our ecosystem is about to witness a major explosion of AI projects. The specific timing has not yet been determined, but I can reveal that this AI is named Miria AI. This may be the coolest AI project for Abstract in the short term because it is different from the AI agents that flood the X platform; it is more like luxury brands in the AI field, such as LV and Balenciaga.
Q11: What new progress has Pudgy Penguins made in terms of mass adoption? Such as online and offline toy sales, IP collaborations, etc.? How to extend the lifecycle of the IP? How does the Pudgy Penguins team balance traditional IP business and crypto-native business?
Luca: Yes, we will probably announce some latest news this week, including several offline stores in South Korea. A few days ago, we just announced our collaboration with Candy Pez, a highly recognizable and super popular retail brand (Odaily Planet Daily Note: This is an Austrian company specializing in candy and manual candy dispensers, founded in 1927, known in Chinese as 贝思糖果). We have been advancing brand collaborations, and last year, Pudgy Penguins toy sales exceeded 2 million, achieving excellent sales. In just December 2024, we sold about 400,000 toys, setting the best record to date.
Regarding business balance, our team currently has 65 people, with 20 members in the crypto field and 45 in the IP field. Clear division of labor brings a good business balance.
Q12: Can you share your outlook for 2025?
Luca: I believe this year will be the year of Igloo; PENGU's market position will not only remain at the 12th place in meme coin market cap but is expected to challenge the top three; Abstract will become the only market competitor, especially in driving user adoption, and will directly compete with Base. I believe that Pudgy Penguins NFT will become the number one project in NFT market cap by the end of this year.
Q13: As a creator, how can one contribute to the Abstract ecosystem and receive corresponding rewards and incentives?
Luca: Yes, the live streaming mechanism is one of the most exciting parts of the Abstract ecosystem, and I hope everyone can participate. For individual content creators, we will have a large number of reward incentives, and this aspect has a very high proportion.
Both I personally and the Abstract ecosystem show the utmost respect for content creators. Especially for live streamers, such as sports streamers, they can earn rewards by live streaming themselves playing basketball, although it may not be particularly much. The key is that users can transmit content through a fixed Abstract live streaming application, create content around this action, enhance user stickiness, expand network effects, find their own PMF, and subsequent growth flywheel; for top live streamers, this is a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity.
If a token in the Abstract ecosystem achieves this goal, the corresponding rewards will be very considerable. But the premise is that you must contribute to the ecosystem's development. In other words, your content about live streaming and sports on Twitch or other platforms means little to me, but if you live stream on the Abstract application and continuously produce ecosystem-related content, your rewards will be maximized. So what you need to do now is to apply as a creator, complete the corresponding process, and we will gradually disclose more information in the coming weeks.
Odaily Planet Daily: It sounds like Abstract may become a competitor to social media platforms like YouTube and TikTok in the future?
Yes, that's right.
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