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Sun Yuchen, the founder of the blockchain platform TRON, is a 35-year-old billionaire with a net worth of over ten billion dollars, and a topic generator who always manages to ride the latest trends.

Some say he is a volatility amplifier in the cryptocurrency industry, while others accuse him of being a scammer who exploits investors. However, he believes he is simply ahead of his time, which leads to frequent misunderstandings.

After leaving China in 2017, he maneuvered globally. Despite both China and the U.S. having imposed strict crackdowns on the cryptocurrency industry, and Sun Yuchen being sued by the U.S. Securities and Exchange Commission, he always finds a way to survive. He spent the largest sum of his life to buy Trump coins and became a guest of Trump.

How does he respond to external criticism and doubt? How does he understand money, reputation, and the world?

Host: I’m curious about your worldview. How do you understand yourself and then understand the world? Because everyone knows you are someone who can make money in extreme ways and has many extreme methods to make money. If you were to rank them, how would you rank money, reputation, and power?

Sun Yuchen: Actually, I don’t think I make money in an extreme way. I think this is just a meme played by people on the internet.

The concept of "concept god" now refers to the so-called internet meme. In Chinese internet culture, there is a concept of "concept god," which is somewhat like the gods of ancient Greece who govern various things, right?

This means that everyone has their own so-called concept, and so I have been given the label of someone who makes money quickly. It’s not just about making money; it’s about the concept of making money quickly, which I don’t understand why they think that.

Host: How do you feel about people calling you "Sun the Cutter," referring to cutting leeks?

Sun Yuchen: First of all, I want to say that the concept of making money quickly is something they assigned to me. I actually don’t know what happened. I’m just doing my own thing, and they label me as someone who makes money quickly. From now on, all your news about me will just be memes.

This is the concept, and the term "Brother Sun" is also interesting. I want to talk about the origin of "Brother Sun." I used to be called Sun Yuchen, but maybe my name is too long, three characters, and a bit hard to write. So people in the community started to use the nickname "Brother Sun."

Host: Is it "brother" as in "older brother" or "cut" as in cutting leeks?

Sun Yuchen: "Brother" as in "older brother." I personally think this name is quite friendly in the community. So I accepted this expression. Even our company’s media and public relations started saying things like, "Brother Sun, please hold an event…" "Brother Sun, please…" Then the meme creators came in, which is normal. I think this is also a very normal communication model on the internet.

People always want to take something serious, like something respectable, and interpret it in a mocking way. I don’t think this is negative; in fact, it’s a way to spread things faster. In a way, it’s not a bad thing. I think it’s easier to spread from a communication perspective. So they changed my "brother" to "cutter."

Host: So do you indeed place money before reputation, or reputation after money?

Sun Yuchen: I don’t particularly value either money or reputation. I value my mission more. For example, since 2012, I’ve felt that I am spreading the concept of a value network. Of course, later on, people stopped using that term and started using blockchain, cryptocurrency, and digital currency. I adapted to that concept, right? But I’ve always felt that I have a mission to do this well. This is my personal mission, so my highest priority is to ensure that these things are done well and that the mission is accomplished. Therefore, I don’t value reputation or money. Why?

Because reputation is also volatile; it fluctuates based on how well people understand the mission. If you value reputation too much, it’s not right because you are essentially doing things for others’ evaluations, which is unnecessary. Just like I insisted earlier, we do this because we believe it’s right; it should be done this way, right? For example, if the U.S. government thinks it’s right today to portray me as a good person and a hero, but two days ago they thought it was wrong and said I was breaking the law, right? But regardless of whether I do it or not, I won’t follow your line of thinking. At most, I’ll say if you don’t let me do it, I won’t do it in your country, and that’s it. I think that’s the first point.

The second point is that we don’t particularly value money either because money is also volatile. Just like Mingyu mentioned, it fluctuates. Today, everyone is optimistic and rushes in, causing prices to soar, and tomorrow they say it’s not advocated, and everyone quickly withdraws, causing prices to plummet. If you place too much importance on the volatility of money, you won’t be able to persist in doing things well. If the external influence of money and reputation on you is significant, how can you do things, right?

Host: What is the purpose of making money quickly?

Sun Yuchen: There’s nothing quick about it. I just think my life has been quite serendipitous. Looking back today, I feel it’s very coincidental. After finishing my studies at Peking University, I went to the University of Pennsylvania, and while I was there, I happened to encounter two things that changed my life. One was Tesla. Elon Musk came to speak at our school, and I thought Tesla was a very interesting company because Elon Musk told us that electric vehicles are completely revolutionary. My understanding of cars is quite interesting; electric motors are completely different from traditional fuel engines. However, at that time, I didn’t start a business in the automotive sector because it requires a manufacturing background, and I lacked that background.

Host: The CEOs of Insta360 and Bilibili have never been labeled as scammers by the media. Why have you been labeled as a scammer?

Sun Yuchen: Because we are more ahead of the curve. First of all, to graduate and succeed in entrepreneurship, there are indeed some prerequisites. Your entrepreneurship cannot be too traditional because traditional businesses will be quickly overtaken by giants. For example, at that time, we had a few car startups that were quickly labeled as scammers because they raised hundreds of millions in funding and quickly produced prototypes, while many car companies didn’t have that much money to create prototypes. Bilibili succeeded because it relied on internet culture and the so-called community-driven ACG culture, which gave it a lot of points. That’s why Bilibili can create community videos, while Tencent Video, Youku, and iQIYI cannot succeed; it’s because they lack that community and culture, which is difficult to replicate.

Host: Do you think those who label you as a scammer do so because they don’t understand you?

Sun Yuchen: Yes, it’s because I’m too ahead of the curve. There are two types of being ahead of the curve. One is like I just mentioned, for example, Bilibili does things that are slightly challenging for giants. You can’t do something completely traditional and expect to succeed because if you do something very traditional, the giants will come in and compete with you, and you’ll be done. But being too ahead of the curve also requires some composure because you need to understand what you’re doing. The downside of being too ahead of the curve is that it’s hard for the media to understand, and it’s also hard for investors to understand. We actually needed funding in the early stages. Fortunately, we had IDG supporting us, and they saw that we indeed had a forward-looking vision.

Host: If you were to grade yourself, what score would you give yourself?

Sun Yuchen: 9 points. The remaining point is due to lack of experience; I still made many execution errors. Of course, we have paid for our execution errors, but that’s part of growth.

Host: What do you think is the biggest misunderstanding from the outside world about you?

Sun Yuchen: I think the first is the symbolization of the internet. Most people won’t understand what I usually do; they basically assign me two labels: one is the "god of making money quickly" mentioned earlier, and the other is the "bug-fixing god." Regarding bug-fixing, they even describe every step of my life as "fixing bugs" to support their theories, which makes me both amused and helpless because it’s not like that at all, but they keep saying it.

Host: There’s a particularly funny joke. I don’t know if you’ve seen it, but they say you might not make much money by helping an old lady cross the street, but Sun Yuchen rides the old lady across the street and can still make money.

Sun Yuchen: Yes, they say I’m crazy enough to ride the old lady across the street, and it’s not illegal; the law doesn’t prohibit it.

Host: For example, under the major crises between China and the U.S., you have managed to escape and stand up, gaining significant benefits, not because of "bug-fixing."

Sun Yuchen: Absolutely not; there’s no bug-fixing involved. It’s just a normal mindset. As we discussed earlier, if China doesn’t allow it, we won’t do it; we’ll just do it overseas with a global perspective. I never tried to fix anyone’s bugs, but it’s fine. Now on the internet, they call me the "bug-fixing god," which also helps me gain more recognition.

Host: What is the most expensive thing you’ve ever bought in your life? Was it the Trump coin?

Sun Yuchen: Yes, I spent quite a bit on the Trump coin. We bought about 100 million dollars' worth.

Host: Indeed, that money spent was worth it; can it be said to have kept you safe?

Sun Yuchen: Actually, we’ve never talked about the concept of "keeping safe," nor have we felt unsafe. The outside world has exaggerated it. We have always communicated very openly with the U.S. government and have never said it was to avoid anything. For example, when the SEC approached us, our lawyers communicated properly and never refused to communicate. If the U.S. didn’t allow us to operate, we wouldn’t operate. On the other hand, I think the president also released goodwill, and we have a mutually beneficial relationship.

Host: Can you talk about what role you played in the process of Trump issuing the TRUMP coin?

Sun Yuchen: On the eve of the 2024 presidential election, the Trump team proactively contacted me, indicating that if elected president, they would adopt a pro-cryptocurrency policy.

Host: What was their purpose in contacting you?

Sun Yuchen: They hoped I could provide policy advice and guidance. At that time, they had just entered the cryptocurrency industry and were unsure how to proceed.

Host: With so many cryptocurrency companies and exchanges in the U.S., why would they consult you?

Sun Yuchen: I might indeed hold a certain key position in the cryptocurrency industry. They consulted many people; I was just one of them. The Trump group hoped I could provide guidance on cryptocurrency policy and offer cooperative support. They primarily focused on real estate and wanted to enter this new blue ocean industry of digital currency. I was very excited at that time. Trump clearly stated his friendliness towards cryptocurrency before the election and actively participated in Bitcoin conferences and related events, which made me feel very encouraged. I am personally very grateful for Trump’s support for the cryptocurrency industry. Therefore, I fully support Trump-related cryptocurrency enterprises. I believe this is legitimate industry support without the negative factors that people imagine.

Host: Some of our audience may not be very familiar, so let me explain. There is currently a narrative in the market that not only you but everyone attending cryptocurrency conferences is lining up to give Trump money, which is direct and blatant bribery. You are now the largest holder of Trump coins; do you think this is a bribe?

Sun Yuchen: First of all, I believe that nothing is more important than transparency. If this were bribery, then no one would dare to be open about it. The most important thing is that this matter can withstand scrutiny. First, the issuance of the coin by Trump was public and without any cover-up. Secondly, this needs to be reported; for example, President Trump’s actions are reported every six months. Therefore, our investments in Trump-related enterprises, including my identity as the largest holder of TRUMP coins, are all public. Perhaps it is precisely because of this transparency that the media pays more attention. However, I believe we are transparent and have not concealed anything. Transparency is very important.

The second point is about our attitude towards Trump’s industrial policy; we are optimistic about the development of Trump’s company itself. The American political system allows for business activities based on reporting and avoiding conflicts of interest. We can’t just shut down Trump’s golf courses because he became president. Moreover, Trump’s lenient policy towards cryptocurrency is industry-wide; it is not solely his decision but the result of collective decisions made by cryptocurrency legislators. The president will not act unilaterally.

Host: Actually, I’ve looked at your experiences, and I find you quite remarkable because you have gone through several major crises. Many people either do not escape from these crises or emerge from them battered and bruised, finding it difficult to rise again and do new things. But you not only escaped but also gained significant benefits from these crises, which many people cannot achieve.

So I want to talk about your experiences over the past few years since you left mainland China in 2017. What kind of crises did you encounter each time, and how did you escape from them? Let’s discuss your past experiences.

Sun Yuchen: Yes, recently there’s a popular phrase "Brother Feng on the run," right? No matter the angle or what happens, Brother Feng interprets it as a good thing. Do you think every crisis you face is a good thing? Perhaps we should think from this perspective, just like I mentioned earlier; Chinese companies need to continuously undergo transformation after going overseas, right?

Host: Do you think when you left mainland China in 2017, you really felt it was a good thing? Because at that time, let me briefly introduce the background: China’s 94 ban was very strict, and companies issuing coins were actually prohibited from doing so and were required to return funds. You completed the issuance of your coin the day before the ban was announced, and you had already left China. Can you take us back to what happened at that time?

Sun Yuchen: Yes, first of all, I think it’s still true that what Brother Feng said is right; it’s a good thing, right? Did I really think it was a good thing at that time? Of course, I didn’t think so then, but I just want to say that looking back, there are a few perspectives I want to share.

Actually, that era was already eight years ago, right? For many Chinese or Chinese-background enterprises, being barred from the Chinese market was a disaster, equivalent to not allowing the entire company to operate. Looking back today, it’s actually not like that, right? Internationalization can be done very well. However, for many people, it was the end of the world, right? This is what I mentioned earlier about the self-limiting nature of Chinese companies. Many companies have this self-limiting mindset; it’s as if they feel they can’t do well internationally and lack the confidence to say they can’t do it, right? They think they don’t have the gene for overseas markets, right?

Host: At that time, I know some people advised you not to issue the coin, as that might allow you to stay safely in China. But you still went ahead with the issuance and left China. Why did you insist on not just staying in China but wanting to go global instead of choosing a more cautious route, perhaps not issuing the coin and finding something else to do?

Sun Yuchen: There are several reasons for this. The first reason is that we felt that at that time, blockchain wasn’t even called blockchain, nor was it called cryptocurrency; these names came later. At that time, it was just a simple name like Bitcoin or Ethereum, without any of the so-called concepts.

But if we refer to the entire industry as cryptocurrency, I personally believe it is still part of the internet wave, somewhat like the mobile revolution. For example, when mobile phones started to enter people’s lives, we soon had WeChat and Alipay.

Host: At that time, as you said, the market didn’t even have a clear industry concept. Many people, I don’t know how you felt, but many people might not have seen it as clearly as you did. They thought this wouldn’t directly enhance productivity at that time. What did you believe in? Did you simply think this could make money?

Sun Yuchen: I think there were several points at that time. The first point is that for people outside our industry, a crucial factor influencing their entry into this field is the national industrial policy, not just in China but also in the U.S. and other countries. If the industrial policy is unfriendly, it will affect many people’s entry into the industry. This has always been a problem we are trying to solve.

The so-called major countries’ industrial policies towards this industry are important, but I think another significant point is that we also need to see the technological development trends, which are not influenced by the industrial policies of individual countries.

For example, let me give a simple example. If you consider the evolution from cold-blooded animals to warm-blooded animals, cold-blooded animals cannot compete with warm-blooded animals in nature because warm-blooded animals can automatically regulate their blood temperature, making it easier for them to adapt to changing conditions in nature.

Under the same conditions, cold-blooded animals cannot survive, while warm-blooded animals can, right? Of course, warm-blooded animals evolved quickly, leading to mammals. Their evolutionary criteria are not related to whether zoos encourage these animals; their evolutionary criteria only align with whether it is beneficial for them to survive in nature, right? Originally, they might have died with slight temperature changes, but now they can survive continuously. So I believe that in our specific track, the so-called digital currency track is also continuously evolving. If Chinese companies do not fill the gap, companies from the U.S. or Europe will come in and fill it immediately.

So at that time, on one hand, as you mentioned, after the adjustment of China’s industrial policy, many companies stopped operating, and many companies disappeared. On the other hand, you also faced very fierce competition from the outside because their production capacity might not have adjusted, and they were still developing rapidly. You had to compete with them because, in the end, it’s like the internet; they are not affected by any single company. Each individual company will face adjustments in their country’s industrial policy, but if you look from a very neutral perspective, like standing on Mars and looking at Earth, Martians wouldn’t care about how Earth changes.

They are just observing. So the competition will spontaneously arise within the Earth itself. Italian companies will come in.

Then Italian companies will compete with Chinese companies, and Swiss companies will compete as well. If China steps back, Italian companies will immediately come in to fill the gap.

So it’s a very spontaneous global competitive situation.

Host: You think, like the internet, the Bitcoin and cryptocurrency industry is without nationality. But can you give us some explanations for those who may not understand the cryptocurrency industry? What do you see as the value that this brings to productivity?

Sun Yuchen: The value of enhancement is certainly significant. Essentially, I often use an analogy: we first have the internet layer, which is just information transmission. The internet transmits information, and now with the so-called cryptocurrency and blockchain, it adds a layer that transmits value and currency into the internet layer. Of course, I personally believe this revolution is even more intense than the internet revolution because the more valuable the transmitted content, the more valuable the network becomes. If it’s just information transmission, information naturally doesn’t have the value that money does.

Host: Some people have told me that your greatest significance to the industry is that you are a volatility amplifier. How do you view this evaluation?

Sun Yuchen: Some people might even call me not just a volatility amplifier; there’s a typical English term called the canary effect. I don’t know if you’ve heard of it. It refers to the practice in coal mines where canaries were placed in cages and taken into the mines first. If the canary died, it meant there were dangerous gases, and miners should not enter. If the canary was alive and well, then it was safe to go in, right?

Host: They think you are the canary.

Sun Yuchen: I’m becoming the canary of our industry.

Host: Do you accept this evaluation?

Sun Yuchen: I think it’s simple to say that this is also an objective phenomenon; it is indeed like that.

Host: Where were you when the SEC charged you?

Sun Yuchen: I was in Singapore at that time.

Host: You were in Singapore when you saw the SEC charging you with insider trading and various insider operations, accusing you of fraud and issuing unregistered securities because they believe tokens are securities. You might face prison time like Zhang Changpeng. What were you thinking when you saw all this?

Sun Yuchen: First of all, it’s not to the extent of prison time; that’s an exaggeration because the SEC’s charges are civil lawsuits, not criminal ones. On that day, not only was I charged, but two companies were also charged simultaneously. From our perspective, the SEC’s actions were tantamount to declaring war on our entire industry. In my view, this was the last climax of SEC Chairman Gary Gensler before he stepped down. However, many people at that time could not see the long-term picture and mistakenly believed this represented a complete shift in the U.S. attitude towards the cryptocurrency industry.

Host: Did you comfort yourself at that time? Did you think this old man was just making a final move?

Sun Yuchen: It’s not just me comforting myself; it’s the fact.

Host: But at that time, you didn’t know what would happen next, and the reality was very harsh. You saw it and felt no fear.

Sun Yuchen: I think it was exaggerated by everyone; it was completely exaggerated. Of course, as I mentioned earlier, finance can be an amplifier, so the external reaction might be more significant. I think continuing to work, continuing to live is enough. I believe traditional industries have gone through many of these situations. I think we in emerging industries have made this matter too big. For example, even institutions like the U.S. Department of Justice have investigated HSBC, Citibank, Microsoft, and Google, and they have been fined countless times.

Sun Yuchen: Antitrust issues have occurred countless times. If a company cannot treat government investigations as a normal occurrence, it cannot grow into a large company. Of course, the government can sometimes be very overbearing, as much of their retrospective actions are taken without providing policy guidance, leaving everyone unsure of what to do. You are essentially being held accountable for past actions, and the SEC's lawsuit against us at that time was completely unfounded because they filed the lawsuit without having established any policies. They have become so overbearing that they claim you have violated the law, and we ask, "Which law have we violated? Do you have a law?"

Host: Some say this is another major crisis you faced after 1994. You say you are not panicking, but you have taken many actions to avoid the consequences faced by similar peers who have been imprisoned, such as serving as Grenada's ambassador and permanent representative to the WTO. What is the significance of this identity?

Sun Yuchen: Serving as Grenada's ambassador to the WTO and the United Nations is a meaningful attempt. Major powers like the United States do not easily provide such opportunities, but Grenada is willing to try. This is not only beneficial for Grenada but also allows me to promote the value of blockchain technology on the international stage in an official capacity. Through the platforms of the WTO and the United Nations, I can convey the voice of blockchain globally, not just limited to Grenada.

Host: Beyond giving you a diplomatic identity, is there also a part of the reason that having a diplomatic identity allows you to seek immunity from U.S. judicial accountability?

Sun Yuchen: Not really. The U.S. judicial system is based on court rulings, and diplomatic status cannot directly exempt one from accountability. The legal procedures in the U.S. are very clear, from district courts to circuit courts and then to the Supreme Court, with rulings based on facts. Cryptocurrency is not a security; that is a fact, and no matter how much the SEC emphasizes it, it cannot change the court's ruling. My role as Grenada's ambassador is more about the challenges and opportunities, using international platforms to voice for the industry, rather than simply to evade judicial risks.

Host: Do you think meme coins have value? People create memes and can earn a lot of money from them.

Sun Yuchen: I think, first of all, the amount of money earned from meme coins is somewhat underestimated. This is my personal opinion. First, everyone can create a meme, right? Why do some cryptocurrencies, like meme coins, have high market values and rise, while others fail and go to zero?

Host: Because some people are very famous, like Trump, Trump's son, and Trump's wife, and everyone thinks that after buying, the next person will pay a higher price.

Sun Yuchen: In my view, it’s not like that. First, I want to point out that the viral spread on the internet and the emergence of value on the internet have created a strong monetary value, which indeed has not appeared before, but it is an internet phenomenon. We can only recognize it because it is an objective phenomenon. However, I believe that behind these internet phenomena, their success must have a very large grassroots foundation and a phenomenon.

Host: Can you help summarize for those who don’t quite understand meme coins? What is the value of memes in one sentence?

Sun Yuchen: I think it is about converting internet attention into money, somewhat like Einstein's mass-energy equation. Before Einstein realized the mass-energy equation, mass could not be converted into energy, right? Of course, Einstein's mass-energy equation shows that mass can not only be converted into energy but can also be multiplied in conversion. For example, one gram of mass annihilated can release a tremendous amount of energy, equivalent to a massive atomic bomb explosion. This is how it was invented, right? The annihilation of mass generates enormous energy. It is similar to a closed conduction process, which also converts internet attention into money.

Host: Here’s a hypothetical: if Biden is re-elected and issues a coin, would you buy it?

Sun Yuchen: I would not buy it. Because I think Biden does not have the internet value or the meme value; Trump is unique in the world.

Host: Do you think Biden's coin would be a losing business? It wouldn’t rise?

Sun Yuchen: I might not be so blunt, but I think first, he probably wouldn’t issue a coin because there’s no reason to issue one. You could help him find a reason, right? I think in the internet age, everyone might feel that anyone can issue a coin, right? Everyone can issue coins, but actually, from everyone being able to issue coins to being recognized, there is still a huge gap in between. You must stand out in the so-called internet attention economy to become what I consider a winner.

Related: Hyperliquid whale nets $48 million in XPL surge of 200%, also triggering manipulation allegations.

Original: “Exclusive Interview | Sun Yuchen: I am the canary, a 9-point madman, but I am not a liar”

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